D’Wayne Wiggins on Tony! Toni! Toné!, Beyoncé and beyond

Sophie Bearman [00:00:00] You're listening to Life in Seven Songs, where some of the world's most fascinating people share how they found their way and the songs that helped them through. From The San Francisco Standard, I'm Sophie Bearman. In this show, guests make a playlist or soundtrack of the most impactful moments of their lives. And for this week's guest, music has been his life. Joining us is Grammy Award-winning musician and producer D'Wayne Wiggins. He's the lead singer and guitarist for Tony! Toni! Toné!—the group was super popular in the late 80s and 90s with 14 Billboard-charting R&B singles, including five number one hits like "Anniversary" and "Feels Good." And they are still touring nearly 40 years later. Yet D'Wayne's biggest accomplishment may actually be the success he's helped others reach as a mentor. He's worked with superstars like Alicia Keys, Zendaya, Kehlani and Beyoncé. D'Wayne, thanks so much for joining us.

D'Wayne Wiggins [00:01:10] Happy to be here. Truly.

Sophie Bearman [00:01:12] So now that I've introduced you, can you please introduce Tony? Where did the name Tony! Toni! Toné! come from?

D'Wayne Wiggins [00:01:20] I came up with a nickname for a roommate of mine who came over to stay with me because his mom put him out. He was going to stay there for two weeks, and he ended up staying for two or three years.

Sophie Bearman [00:01:27] As it goes.

D'Wayne Wiggins [00:01:28] But he was a dude, you know, fly guy, whatever. He always had some of the finest chicks. I mean, he'd come and act like he was part of the band. He'd have his bass. He never played it, but he had his bass, and he walked in with a girl and sit there for a while, you know, rehearsing and act like, then he'd say, "Alright, I'll see you all later, man." And, you know, he'd go do his thing. So I envision Tony! Toni! Toné! being this person who thinks he's so much and so fly his first name is Tony, middle name Tony, last name Tony. That's where Tony! Toni! Toné! came from.

Sophie Bearman [00:01:57] Did you always know you'd be a musician?

D'Wayne Wiggins [00:01:59] You know, kind of. Yeah. My dad played guitar. He used to rehearse in the kitchen, so I used to experience a lot of that jamming in the kitchen and him cooking and everything. And then I got the fever from this area in Oakland. I kind of knew that this was what I want to do.

Sophie Bearman [00:02:13] What was Oakland like in the 60s, 70s?

D'Wayne Wiggins [00:02:16] Bands all over the place. We go outside, lift weights, go play basketball across the street at Arroyo Park. You see the bands jamming, a lot of boogaloo dance groups. I used to see the Black Panthers doing their rallies and stuff. At that age, I didn't know who the Black Panthers were. I just knew this group of cool guys across the street from my pad. And then the band that would be jammin', you know, which was who would become Mr. Sly Stone later.

Sophie Bearman [00:02:42] Is there a song that brings you back to those good times?

D'Wayne Wiggins [00:02:45] Hot Fun in the Summertime.

Sophie Bearman [00:02:47] By Sly and the Family Stone.

D'Wayne Wiggins [00:02:48] When you hear that piano intro. Oh, I remember the barbecues in the front yard with cookouts. I remember us having dance battles and stuff. So I just remember it was straight community and everybody was one.

D'Wayne Wiggins [00:03:23] Da da da da da da da da da. You can hear those influences in Tony! Toni! Toné!'s music all ass day.

Sophie Bearman [00:03:31] So when did you first pick up a guitar?

D'Wayne Wiggins [00:03:34] I'd have to say 11 years old. There was a gentleman they used to call Big D'Wayne.

Sophie Bearman [00:03:38] You were Little D'Wayne?

D'Wayne Wiggins [00:03:39] Yeah, I was little.

Sophie Bearman [00:03:40] Who was he to you? I mean, your first mentor.

D'Wayne Wiggins [00:03:42] He was—he was my Jimi Hendrix. He wasn't left-handed like Jimi Hendrix, but he put his guitar upside down, and he played every note, just like Jimi Hendrix. And the one song he showed me with Hey Joe. That right there—when I learned that. That was it. That's what turned the light on.

D'Wayne Wiggins [00:04:08] That's one of the songs I played in the first talent show I was in, and I got booed.

Sophie Bearman [00:04:15] Why are people booing?

D'Wayne Wiggins [00:04:16] Because they're waiting for the boogaloo dancers and all that stuff. You know, they'd come out with their outfits on and the big hats and everything like that. But to me, all I know is I learned that—so I don't care how much you boo. To me, I was winning.

Sophie Bearman [00:04:32] Were you nervous?

D'Wayne Wiggins [00:04:33] I'm sure I was nervous because it was my first talent show. But, you know, growing up in Oakland, you get confidence. You really got a chance to find out who you are. You were challenged almost every day.

Sophie Bearman [00:04:44] I think I read or heard you say somewhere that the guitar was like a shield.

D'Wayne Wiggins [00:04:49] It definitely was because it distracted me from a lot of things that, um—some of the people that I grew up with are not here today. You know, places I would have been, maybe they were, I wasn't there because I was trying to be in a talent show or this that and the other. And talent shows back then? You couldn't just show up a day and just be coming on stage. It was like three months prep, so after school you had to show up on time, sign up. So you had to have order. At that age, at 13.

Sophie Bearman [00:05:14] Incredible.

D'Wayne Wiggins [00:05:14] But it's teamwork when you're on that stage and you got to look at it from that angle. You know what I mean? You got to learn where to fit in. And it's like you playing basketball, you learn your position, pass it. I'ma slam it. Whatever else, take the outside shot or whatever. But we had our own little corny Oakland style. We always were about matching and being over the top. We had black patent leather shoes, red satin suit, and I was influenced when I saw The Brothers Johnson on that album cover with the yellow satin outfits. Two brothers, so you can't tell me that was me and Raphael, and that's what we were aiming at. What about that album was crazy.

Sophie Bearman [00:05:50] Yeah. Any song in particular?

D'Wayne Wiggins [00:05:53] Well, Strawberry Letter 23 all day. All right.

Sophie Bearman [00:06:19] I also have to say, for all of our listeners who can't see you, but every time I play the music, we've got some excellent air guitar, air bass, saxophone...

D'Wayne Wiggins [00:06:28] Oh yeah. I'm looking at that big guitar on the wall. Like, you know, I don't want to throw us off, but I, you know, I'm used to having one of those in my hand. That's that's all I want to say.

Sophie Bearman [00:06:37] So how does Tony! Toni! Toné! even begin? Tell me that story.

D'Wayne Wiggins [00:06:40] Well, first of all, my other father—I got, like, three fathers, but this one, he worked at an antique dealer shop called Harvey Clars in Oakland. And, as a kid, he used to take me—I used to work the auctions. Rugs that looked like they were raggedy as hell that were expensive as hell. But he had a house where he kept things, so we would rehearse there. My brother Rafael. And then Tim used to come over once they got out of high school. And that's where we kind of—that's where Tony! Toni! Toné! as a three man unit came because we'd sit there and watch MTV and Soul Beat and we'd just jam in front of it all day. And it was just me with hella guitar pedals, bass in it and all this. To this day I tell people, don't take these fun things you do in life for granted because they turn into things. But they turned into some because the three of us, we were like the black Police, you know, it was funky. We didn't sing much, but we'd have cool hooks, but we would just jam hard, hard, hard. For hella long. We didn't know how to write songs, we didn't know song structure. We just knew we love to jam. And that's where Tony! Toni! Toné! came from, it's original sound.

Sophie Bearman [00:07:40] Okay, we talked a little bit about finding your sound. Is there a particular song that speaks to you?

D'Wayne Wiggins [00:07:48] I'm thinking of Imagination.

Sophie Bearman [00:07:50] Earth, Wind and Fire.

D'Wayne Wiggins [00:07:52] Yeah.

D'Wayne Wiggins [00:07:56] First of all, I hear the different changes that it goes through. And then what I really love about it is the ride out. And then Philip Bailey just takes it away with his high falsetto. So we used to listen to that, how they took a song and they started real mellow. You listen to the end of that song and he's singing. He's screaming and it's just, yeah, it's out of here. You look at Al Green, Al Green when he sings, you think Al Green went to vocal lessons to sing like that? Hell no. It's him. You think James Brown went to vocal lessons? No. It's him. So your own distinct sound and personality. It's what makes you.

Sophie Bearman [00:08:42] That makes me think of The Jam.

D'Wayne Wiggins [00:08:44] Oh yeah. The Jam? Stop playing.

Sophie Bearman [00:08:46] Let's talk about The Jam and Larry Graham.

D'Wayne Wiggins [00:08:47] So everybody in the hood really listened to him intensely. In fact, we used to park and listen to them rehearse out in front. I know he thought we were stalkers, but we'd be out in the front and they'd be in the garage and that's what it was like to grow up around the area where you see, like I said, you saw Sly, but you damn sure would see Graham. And the one thing that changed my life is that Castlemont High, when a lunch break right in the courtyard, my band at this time, now we're Alpha Omega. We out there jamming, and we were pretty popular. We had our horn section and stuff, and I looked and here comes the principal with Larry Graham and Grand Central Station. And I will never forget David Vega, the guitar player. He's like, let me, can I play your guitar? And I say, yeah. I had a black Les Paul. And they took our instruments. When they finished playing our instruments, I looked at my guitar like, damn, you could sound like that. Yeah, that was it. And so that made me understand a lot too then. Find your own tone. And, so if you listen to my guitar licks as opposed to whoever may play with us, whatever, I got my own tone and style. You find your—you do you.

Sophie Bearman [00:09:55] You do you. Let's listen to The Jam by Graham Central Station.

D'Wayne Wiggins [00:10:00] And when they first come in—when they hold that note. Oh come on, it's on. So it's like a course you get into with the strings that he has on it, the Rotosounds and all of it—Rotosounds is a certain string, and that the instrument he played, the weapon he chose was a Fender Jazz. You had to have those combinations to get the true, authentic flavor of Larry. And we knew that. Just everybody from my era, we know how to play like Larry. Not just, "Oh, it sounds like Larry." No, we know how to sound like Larry. You know what I mean? It's different.

Sophie Bearman [00:10:42] So you started Tony! Toni! Toné! with your brother. What is it like being in a band with a sibling?

D'Wayne Wiggins [00:10:48] It's a blessing and a curse. It's a good thing because we're one. We're calling plays out in our head, even though we don't speak about it, me and him know, because there's certain things we've done in talent shows and all of that. And he'll walk by me to say, "You know, that thing we did?" Such and such. And nobody else knows but me and him. So it's crazy because I could be doing over here, and he's on the right hand side, and I could be doing something and I already know we already know the pause. And people be looking like "We didn't even rehearse that." No. We lived this. It's not a rehearsal. You're living right now.

Sophie Bearman [00:11:22] Just an unspoken—

D'Wayne Wiggins [00:11:25] Yeah, language. There's things that we grew up in and we can reflect back on. And that is the best thing. There is nothing like being on the stage with family.

Sophie Bearman [00:11:33] What about the curse part?

D'Wayne Wiggins [00:11:34] The curse part is you got to deal with everybody. We got our own personalities, and then you have to, you know, you got to let things go because then you have to all go back to "It's business." Iit's business, it's business, it's not personal. But then you be thinking about "That's what mother said" in your head. And we grown also. But it's good.

Sophie Bearman [00:11:53] So what has it been like to tour for 37, maybe 40, depending how you count years?

D'Wayne Wiggins [00:12:00] Heaven. I have to be on stage. I get real tense when I'm at home too long. So if you see me around town too much it's a problem. I had got so used to traveling to where I make my room look like a hotel.

Sophie Bearman [00:12:11] Your room at home?

D'Wayne Wiggins [00:12:13] Oh, yeah. I mean, I just like that feel.

Sophie Bearman [00:12:17] Speaking about traveling and touring, you mentioned on your list one song in particular that wherever you went, people knew. What was that?

D'Wayne Wiggins [00:12:25] Be Thankful For What You got.

Sophie Bearman [00:12:26] By William DeVaughn.

D'Wayne Wiggins [00:12:27] When I was in the club, I think we were playing in Japan at a club. And I kid you not, it was small as hell, maybe capacity of 250. They knew it. They knew that hook. "Diamond it in the back, sunroof top, diggin' the scene with a gangsta lean, wooh-ooh-ooh..."

Sophie Bearman [00:12:53] I love this song and that you chose it because you were playing it at 14, 15, and you've been playing it for 50 years.

D'Wayne Wiggins [00:12:59] And up to this day.

Sophie Bearman [00:13:00] Around the world.

D'Wayne Wiggins [00:13:00] Yeah, I've played it at funerals. You know, because it's uplifting.

Sophie Bearman [00:13:09] It's time for a quick break. When we come back, D'Wayne remembers how a phone call from Beyoncé's father changed his life and the future superstar's life. Stay with us.

Sophie Bearman [00:13:18] So at some point you become a father. You have three kids. How does one parent on the road?

D'Wayne Wiggins [00:13:42] They parented me. Well, how I did it? I've learned—fortunately, when I signed Destiny's Child they were 13 and 14 years old, and my first child was a girl, and I learned a lot by dealing with them, how it made me focus a lot more on changing my ways about certain things. Like my daughter, she can't see this, I can't get out like that. Certain things I had to, you know, people see you out. You got to be—you got to be on your toes all the time, you know? I'm not saying I didn't be—I still was me, but I made sure I monitored things a lot better. And I always believed in exposure is key. Education was tops. But you got to learn how to apply that education. So whenever I travel, call it a vacation or whatever, I always took my kids. So she got a lot of getting around and seeing things to see what they are. So, you know, seeing Beyoncé, the hard work they put in on doing one song, seeing Kelly, seeing LaTavia and LeToya, all of them, seeing the girls as a group together, you know, seeing them having to deal with each other's personalities and all of that.

Sophie Bearman [00:14:51] So just to place us in time, this is 1995.

D'Wayne Wiggins [00:14:54] This is 1995.

Sophie Bearman [00:14:55] Yet you get a call from Beyoncé's father.

D'Wayne Wiggins [00:14:58] Yeah. Well, I met her before when she was nine years old.

Sophie Bearman [00:15:02] Okay.

D'Wayne Wiggins [00:15:02] She with this group they called Girls Tyme or whatever else. She said, "I sing." I was like, "Sing something," And she was a little more shy, she didn't really sing anything. Whatever. So it was years later, and I had done a lot of major deals with groups, developing groups with Sony, with Motown. I get a call from Mathew Knowles. "Hey, D'Wayne, this is Mathew Knowles." I was like, "Hey." He said, "I'm Beyoncé's dad." I was like, "Oh, okay, hi." "We are interested in doing business with you." And um, yeah, I'm just like, "Okay, well, what do they sound like? What do they sing?" I said, "Well, let me hear it." Because I remember Girls Tyme was like six people dancing. So he sent me a cassette and I put it in and I played it, and I was like, "This ain't no damn 13 and 14 year old kids. I ain't stupid." So I called him back. I was like, "Okay, good Mathew, but who's singing?" He said, "It's the girls." So, you know, I mean they were really that dope.

Sophie Bearman [00:15:57] Sounded that mature, just did not—

D'Wayne Wiggins [00:15:59] So he said, "I'm gonna send you—" he sent me a VHS tape and I put it in and that thing came up and I was like, "Whoa." Like I said, they were 13 and 14, and I learned structure, extreme structure from producing them. It's different. They're kids, certain things you can't do in the studio. The courts gotta approve of your contract that you issued to these kids. I moved them to Oakland almost for two years and put them in a six-bedroom house. I had to furnish the whole place and they had that be on top of their educations. So I had to hire tutors. I used to look at, you know, their grades and how things were going, you know, Beyoncé kind of slacking up on her Spanish and, you know, she wasn't taking it as serious. And I remember a conversation I had with her, I was like, "Eh, you better get in on that, because let me just tell you, when you go to other countries, you do a song in Spanish it's a whole nother turn up." So just being able to drop that jewel on someone like that showed me how to be a leader from behind.

Sophie Bearman [00:16:56] It's the full package. Especially for 13 year olds. It's music, it's education. And how old are you at this point?

D'Wayne Wiggins [00:17:03] I was a roughly 28, 29.

Sophie Bearman [00:17:07] That's so young. That's a huge, huge thing.

D'Wayne Wiggins [00:17:09] Yeah.

Sophie Bearman [00:17:10] To then have four girls, right, come in a house. You're educating them. You're working with them on music every day. Incredible

D'Wayne Wiggins [00:17:18] Yeah. You know, it means a lot to me because I mean, first of all, that's trust. That's like, "Damn Mathew, you hella trusted me with them." He's like, "I just saw you have certain morals about yourself and ways of dealing with things. And you kept family around." And I'm like, "Yeah." Because that's the way I grew up with Southern ways. And, I respected that. I respected him tremendously. And, you know, his wife, everybody just were, you for, believing in me and, and trusting in me. It was a great experience.

Sophie Bearman [00:17:47] D'Wayne, you brought a list of songs that have influenced you, but I was hoping for one of your seven we could talk about a piece of music that you made that has had quite the impact. Around the time that you were mentoring Destiny's Child you put out some solo work, in particular a song called What's Really Going On (Strange Fruit). I'd love to hear the story behind that one.

D'Wayne Wiggins [00:18:07] That song came about—and I have to describe how it all worked. I was working with India Arie. We were working on the song "I'm not the kind of girl in the video..." and whatever else. And so I took a break and I went to a club in—it's Oakland, but it's a little borderline of Berkeley, a poetry spot. I was always, you know, going to the poetry spots. And I happened to drive up. And at this time I had big dreads in this old vintage station wagon, Mercedes-type, and I'm sitting in the car with a friend of mine and I'm drinking some water, whatever. I mean, I see the action, the police zooming down the street or whatever else, and I'm like, you know, it's Oakland, I know what's up. So all of a sudden, I see the lights on my car behind me and I'm looking in my review like, oh, well, at least I'm registered. Whatever. He's probably running my plates to find out everything is good. All of a sudden my door just opens and then a police officer just rushes in and starts choking me and I threw the water down. He's like, "Spit it out, spit it out!" And I'm like—we're back and forth going like this. And I'm like, "Spit, the fuck out? What?" I mean this went on for I think maybe about 50 seconds or so. And then another police officer came up saying, "Oh no, no, no, no, no, he's such such such." So the officer, when he realized he's like, "Oh, I'm sorry, I thought you were doing drugs." I don't do drugs. First of all, I was like, what kind of freaking drugs is in water now? What's going on? So, so at this time I'm 40-something, you know, I mean, so when that happened, I am not going to say I wasn't tripping off of it. When I went back to the studio India was in there and I was like, "Hey lemme fuck around on the mic for a moment." And I went in and I started just doing that cus I was like, man, this is like some strange fruit stuff, you know what I mean? You know what I mean? This is modern day hanging and lynching right here. You just can't open the door and start choking on somebody. And I kind of described my story. Nothing like Billie Holiday's. But I took that influence and I did that concept of Strange Fruit, but I wrote, I just said what my lyrics were, "Me and my amigo. We went to a comedy show to have a little fun with friends. Ran into this lady who I hadn't seen since we chopped it up and made big plans. And that's when I found out Southern trees bear strange fruit..."

D'Wayne Wiggins [00:20:25] And I was trying to just do something local to bring attention to this vileness that's poppin. Next thing I know I'm on a promo tour with Reverend Al Sharpton and all these people, and I'm sitting in a room with big rappers from the East Coast and I'm like, "It's that big?" And that's when I found out about these police officers that were called "The Riders" in Oakland. And they had been doing some things, and then that whole crew was exposed, and I was like, "Damn, I could have got taken out." Because they are already doing it. But that's what happened.

Sophie Bearman [00:20:56] That song, just so I'm understanding, helped expose a police group in Oakland that was doing—

D'Wayne Wiggins [00:21:02] Foul things.

Sophie Bearman [00:21:03] Foul things.

D'Wayne Wiggins [00:21:03] Yeah, well, I could have just easily been taken out, you know what I mean? I didn't know, but I was different. I was able to go hire the biggest attorney, and I was able to carve out and have a message. So that's how that song Strange Fruit ended up making a change for the community.

Sophie Bearman [00:21:19] It's such an important song that you made that continues to speak to the moment all these years later. So we talked about Destiny's Child, but you have mentored a lot of artists. Um, Alicia Keys...

D'Wayne Wiggins [00:21:33] I don't know if they would say I was mentoring, but I know I was because it's just a natural thing with it. And I think that I had an inspiration on Alicia, but I was inspired by her, and I was like, this little young chick is dope and she's so bold. She got a heart.

Sophie Bearman [00:21:45] It goes both ways.

D'Wayne Wiggins [00:21:46] Oh, yeah. Definitely. And it has to go both ways. You know, I learned, you know, we're learning from the youth. All we can show them is morals and they having respect and things of that nature and, you know, be passionate. But other than that they're showing you what the new phase is and you just have to pay attention.

Sophie Bearman [00:22:03] You have traveled the world, but you also keep coming back to Oakland. And not just that, but investing in it. You ended up opening Tony School of Music.

D'Wayne Wiggins [00:22:12] Yes I did. TSM.

Sophie Bearman [00:22:13] Tell me about that. Where it is particularly, I think you bought a warehouse that had some significance?

D'Wayne Wiggins [00:22:17] I had a warehouse off of 85th, across the street from Tassafaronga, where I did my first talent show, strange enough, and I had just moved back from LA, and that was in like 2013. First thing I thought about is, okay, what I've been doing with the kids, I'm about to supersize it to death. So this school was a six week summer camp that I gave, and it's only 20 kids. That's all I can work with. And basically the instructors and the teachers that I used to have come to my house and show my son piano and violin or bass, whatever. I started having those teachers who charge like about $50 an hour. I just had a schedule where it was two days a week, Tuesday and Thursday, and those teachers would show up. And I just told them, the difference is you're going to have five people at one time. And that was the difference.

Sophie Bearman [00:23:02] That's how you started the school. And I can see a huge smile on your face talking about it. D'Wayne, what are you most proud of? You've had an incredible career.

D'Wayne Wiggins [00:23:11] Then I'm still living and I still have a passion for this business. I love traveling, I love meeting people. I'm just very grateful that I could follow my passion and live my life. You know, I love it. I truly love this.

Sophie Bearman [00:23:27] D'Wayne Wiggins, thank you so much for joining us.

D'Wayne Wiggins [00:23:29] Hey, thank you so much, Sophie.

Sophie Bearman [00:23:55] Life in Seven Songs is a production from The San Francisco Standard. This episode was produced by me, Sophie Bearman, and our senior producer Jasmyn Morris. Our executive producers are Griffin Gaffney and Jon Steinberg. Nate Tobey is our creative consultant. This episode was mixed by Michelle Lanz. Booking help from Meaghan Mitchell. Our theme music is by Kate Davis and Zubin Hensler. And Clark Miller created our show art. Our music consultant is Sarah Tembeckjian. You can find this guest's full playlist at sf.news/spotify. I'm Sophie Bearman. Thanks for listening and see you next time.