How songwriting helped actor Rita Wilson find her voice

Rita Wilson [00:00:00] I'm in awe of people who are rebels. Do their own thing, take chances. I didn't start taking chances until, you know, recently.

Sophie Bearman [00:00:23] You're listening to Life and Seven Songs from The San Francisco Standard. I'm Sophie Bearman. Our guest this week is Rita Wilson. You know her from acting in films like "Sleepless in Seattle" and "Now and Then." She's played numerous TV roles on "Curb Your Enthusiasm," "The Good Wife," "Girls," and the upcoming Lena Dunham show "Too Much." She's produced the highest grossing independent film of all time, "My Big Fat Greek Wedding" and the hit film "Mamma Mia." She's performed on and off Broadway, has a star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame. Of course, she's married to Tom Hanks. But what you probably don't know is that she spent almost her entire career dreaming of a different one, to be a singer songwriter. And in the last decade or so, she's done that, becoming an accomplished musician who's released five albums. Rita Wilson, welcome. 

Rita Wilson [00:01:15] Thank you so much. What a pleasure to be here. 

Sophie Bearman [00:01:18] So, Rita, about 40 years into your career as a successful actor, producer, you decided to become a singer songwriter. How did that happen? How does that happen? 

Rita Wilson [00:01:28] Well, you know, it's something I've always wanted to do. And when I started out, you had to stay in your lane. If you were an actor, you did acting. If you were a singer, you did singing. If you did Broadway, that's what you did. And I tried. I loved it so much. I would do talent nights and open mic nights and things like that when I was a teenager. But acting really was the thing that was my job. I didn't even want to imagine that I could want anything because I felt that would be ungrateful. But I played a game with myself, like, what if? What if I could want something? What would it be? And the answer was music. I did the musical "Chicago" on Broadway, and when I did that, it was so exhilarating. I met a woman called Kara Dioguardi who was a songwriter. And when we met, she had also done "Chicago" after I had done it. She said, Well, what what would you want to do? What do you want to do? And I said, Well, I would give anything to be able to write songs like you, but I can't. Why not? Well, I'm not a musician. I don't play music. I don't read music. And she said, That's okay. Neither do I. Do you have something you want to say? And when she said that, I was like, Yeah, I do. And she said, okay, I'm going to write your first songs with you. And she did. And she did it while she was waiting for her baby to be born. I think that's kind of amazing, too. She is. She's changed my life. I had done an album already called "AM FM," which was cover songs of songs from the 60s and the 70s. And Kara really opened the door to songwriting for me. 

Sophie Bearman [00:03:05] For the first song. You chose "Ode to Billie Joe." And it's such an incredible song. It's it doesn't even have a chorus, right? It's just pure story. 

Rita Wilson [00:03:13] Correct. 

Sophie Bearman [00:03:15] And I know in your music you tell a lot of stories, but why did you choose this song? 

Rita Wilson [00:03:20] Well, to me, for many reasons. It is such a dark song. I think this was around '67 when the song came out. And it was when the feminist movement was in process. And I remember being a kid, I might have been 9 or 10, and seeing things about abortion and didn't quite understand what that was, but had a sense of it. And so the idea that this young man took his life and then they saw them on a bridge throwing something off the bridge, what was that? I thought, well, was that a baby? Did they throw the baby off the bridge? I mean, all these things entered my mind. But it was also this thought that you had these people, this family. I came from a very boisterous Greek Bulgarian family. And everybody talked and they were open and transparent and said everything. And people overlapped and interrupted. And yet this family was saying nothing. They had this information that this young man that they know took his life and they're saying, can you pass the peas? 

Sophie Bearman [00:04:36] Right. And there's more acres to plow. 

Rita Wilson [00:04:38] And there's more acres to plow. The sheer denial and avoidance of this powerful piece of information that they've been given that they do nothing with. And that silence said so much. And so I think it's actually extraordinary songwriting that Bobbie Gentry was able to capture in a very profound and compelling way.

Rita Wilson [00:05:27] Her low voice. They're like, How great is that? Just the register of her voice is so beautiful. 

Sophie Bearman [00:05:34] And it's like you said, such a dark song, especially for a nine year old. And another thing that strikes me about the song is it's about grief, right? It is how the sister in the story is grieving. But then later, the father dies. Yeah, the daughter doesn't understand why Mama, you know, is is alone now in her grief. 

Rita Wilson [00:05:53] Exactly. There's so much. It's so chock full of stuff. And I'm glad that you brought up the part about grief and loss, because so many of the songs that I love and that I've chosen today are somewhat about that because I think it's still not something people talk about. People don't want to confront their pain and their loss personally. 

Sophie Bearman [00:06:19] What is brought up for you in terms of grief? What have you experienced? 

Rita Wilson [00:06:23] Well, as a child, I think I lost my grandmother, who I was very, very close to when I was four years old. But my mother lost her father when she was four years old. And she was born in America at four years old the family went back to their village to have summer vacation. And while she was there, her father died and the family was told to stay in the village because what would a woman, a widow with four children, do back in New York? And so they they said, okay, well, we'll do that. And then, of course, after years, the war broke out and then Greek politics and unrest. And my mom had to leave her home at 19 years old and go back to Athens. The village was on the border of Greece and Albania, technically in Albania. And I think I was very much aware that my mom had to leave two homes in her childhood, never to return. And I think my mom had some sense of grief and loss with with that losing her father, losing her home at the same time. So I think that attuned me to someone's pain and someone's loss. 

Sophie Bearman [00:07:43] Yeah. Is your mom still living, Rita? No, I'm sorry. I can see a lot of emotion. 

Rita Wilson [00:07:50] They didn't tell me it was going to be like therapy. 

Sophie Bearman [00:07:54] I'm a big crier. I cry every day so, literally. It's cathartic.

Rita Wilson [00:08:00] The Greeks have a word for it. Catharsis. Which means cleansing. Tears come clean. Yeah, it's true. I think there is a cleansing aspect to it. So I'm all about it. I'm down with the cry.

Sophie Bearman [00:08:12] And it comes from a place of love, right? Like, you are moved because you love your mother and your family? Yeah. This boisterous family that you describe.

Rita Wilson [00:08:22] This boisterous family. 

Sophie Bearman [00:08:24] So curious. Is there a memory that sticks out that sort of paints a picture of that loud, loving childhood? 

Rita Wilson [00:08:29] Yeah, it was jusxt always like that. You know, my dad, you know, in the backyard barbecuing and my mom making food. And I remember she loved music, so she always had music on. She would always be singing along. It's really funny to hear a woman with a Greek accent sing along to the Beatles, you know, or something. 

Sophie Bearman [00:08:49] What did she sound like? 

Rita Wilson [00:08:51] She would say like this. I want to hold your hand. I want to hold your hand. But she would also do impersonations of all the neighborhood kids, too, which was pretty funny. And we had one car, so my dad and she would share a car, but she always had the radio on. So we always were listening to music. And she was very funny because she was kind of good and she would say things like, I think that song going to be a hit. And it usually was like a week later it would be number one or something. 

Sophie Bearman [00:09:23] She had an earring for it. 

Rita Wilson [00:09:24] She did have an ear for it. Yeah. 

Sophie Bearman [00:09:27] Rita Tell me about the second song you chose. "Everything I Own" by Bread.

Rita Wilson [00:09:33] Well, that was one of the songs that I remember distinctly. The car was a Belvedere, or it had these like it was salmon colored, and it had these pointy fins in the back. And I remember my mom and I were at a stoplight, and this song comes on and she said, What do you think this song is about? And I said, I don't know. It's like somebody broke up with somebody and they want to have them back. And she said, no, I think is something different. I think is somebody die and they want to see them again. That was like, way to go, mom. I was like in my fantasy mode of like, breakup with a teenage boy. Like, now you're going to get me to think about somebody dying. Okay, good. But it also, in a way, my mom taught me how to listen to music, listen to lyrics and listen to the story of the song and go into it in a more deep way. 

Sophie Bearman [00:10:30] God, she really had a a sixth sense for this stuff because I've listened to this song a lot since you sent it, and I read that a lot of people do think it's about a broken relationship. And in fact, the songwriter said, that's okay. It can be interpreted that way. But he wrote it about I think he wrote it in memory of his father. 

Rita Wilson [00:10:46] Yeah, exactly. He did. 

Sophie Bearman [00:10:48] She really picked up on that? 

Rita Wilson [00:10:50] Yeah. Yeah. And that, I think, takes a little maturity. You know, you can only. Really experience what, you know, up until that point, right? And then someone else comes along and enlightens you. 

Sophie Bearman [00:11:05] When you hear the song now do you interpret it differently, the way your mother did? 

Rita Wilson [00:11:11] Yes, I do. Yeah, definitely. 

Rita Wilson [00:11:31] And then there's lines that there is there's someone, you know, you're loving them so. And taking them all for granted. You may lose them one day. Someone takes them away. How about his voice in that? It just sounds so heartbroken and so tender and beautiful. And, you know, I lean towards that all the time. I just. I want. I want to feel something. It's like that in anything in a movie and a play and a book and a and an essay and a song. I want to feel something. 

Sophie Bearman [00:12:04] So how did you get into acting? I know you grew up in Los Angeles. 

Rita Wilson [00:12:07] I did. It was accidental. My first day of high school, I went to Hollywood High, which is kind of good Hollywood story. I was walking and a group of people and one of them was a photographer. They had permission from the school to be there and they asked if they could take my picture. And I said, sure. So they took my picture, a few pictures. And then they called and said they wanted me to come in to meet for a possible job. And that job was for Harper's Bazaar magazine. And they were doing a layout for bathing suits that was sort of like a surf theme. And I got the job and I got signed to an agency called Nita Blanchard. She was like the Eileen Ford of the West Coast, and that started modeling. But in high school, I was a cheerleader and a girlfriend of mine had an audition for "The Brady Bunch," and she asked me if I would help her learn a cheer because it was for a cheerleader. I said, Sure, I'll do that. Then she said, Come with me to the audition, kind of as moral support. And I went with her to the audition, waiting in the room, and they said, Are you here for the audition? I said, no. They said, Well, would you like to? And I was like, Sure, I'll audition. But they said, okay. So I didn't get the part that she auditioned for. She did not get that part either, but I got the part of the cheerleader and that got me and my Screen Actors Guild card, and that set me on my way. Because once you're in the union, you can do a lot of work. 

Sophie Bearman [00:13:42] Incredible. So your third song you chose, "She's Leaving Home" by the Beatles. Does this connect to that period of life where you're young, but you're working? 

Rita Wilson [00:13:52] Yes, I think it does. You know, I started working so young, and that song to me really resonated because it was about a young girl, but it was also about her parents. And there was this. Need that she had for independence, but also that she left her parents without telling them really where she was going. And and this line she was meeting a man from the motor trade. What does that mean, Motor trade? I remember being asked to do car shows like be a model at a car show, and I was like, No, I'm never doing that. I'm not being a model for a car show, like, you know, here's the beautiful new Corvette. You know, I'm not going to do that. But also there was this, again, sadness of the song has a melancholy to it. The girl is leaving, the parents are home. They don't know where she is. And yet there's a need for this girl to experience the world at large and to seek her independence. And there's so much that's unsaid in the song that is communicated. 

Rita Wilson [00:15:31] How about that line? She's leaving home after living alone for so many years. Just that distance and that, you know, we're talking the 60s where people were experimenting, exploring, trying to break free from their parents' generation. And that thought that she was alone in her own house. Heartbreaking. Yeah. And I just love that here are these young guys writing this song, and it's about a girl. And I remember once, you know, having an opportunity to speak with Paul McCartney about the music they were making back then, The Beatles. And I was like, What? I said, You had such depth to your songs. What was that? What was going on with you? And Paul said, I know, like yesterday, all my troubles seem so far away when when I was like ten years old. And I was like, Exactly. Because they were like 19 or 20 when they wrote those songs. And yet they had such a connection to the story and to what was going on with people. 

Sophie Bearman [00:16:48] Well, and speaking about the fact that this song was about a girl, you know, to write a song about a girl, you know, you starred in the iconic film "Now and Then." It came out in 1995. And it was so meaningful for so many girls. You know, there were a lot of coming of age movies that I can name about boys, you know, "Stand By Me" and others. But this is the first time we really saw a film about and for girls. I mean, did you realize that at the time was that important to you? 

Rita Wilson [00:17:15] Well, I loved that it was a female story. Right. I loved that. And no one really knew it was going to resonate the way that it did when it came out. And the soundtrack was a banger of a soundtrack. My God. It's still to this day. 

Sophie Bearman [00:17:34] And one of the best scenes in the film is, you know, you're doing your hair, you're singing a Jackson five song.

Sophie Bearman [00:17:55] So you were singing back then. How did that happen? 

Rita Wilson [00:17:59] That happened because Demi said, I want you to sing this song in this movie. My character is getting ready for her friends to come. And she's nine months pregnant. And so she's, you know, making her hair bigger if she can. And there's hairspray involved. And, you know, I just yeah, I love that song. I didn't even think I could sing that high. 

Sophie Bearman [00:18:25] It's time for a quick break. When we come back, we'll get to know Rita, the musician. Stay with us. 

Sophie Bearman [00:18:50] So Rita, I want to go back to something you said earlier. Of course, you had a career as an actor and a producer. But that whole time you felt like or you wondered, Am I allowed to do more? 

Rita Wilson [00:19:00] It's so classic, isn't it? You know, I think women I know I still do it and I still have to battle against it because I see it happening with men and they don't even consider that. They just barrel in and do what they want to do. And I think it's very important for women to be have an awareness of. That they may want more and that it is okay to ask for it. Certainly, I feel inspired by a lot of the younger women because I see them doing that and I'm like, Yeah, girl, go for it. I wish I had been able to do that when I was younger and there were people in my generation that were doing that, and they were inspiring people like Joni Mitchell and Carole King and Stevie Nicks and Carla Balanoff, Linda Ronstadt. They were. They were doing it and they were inspiring. But I just didn't know how to make it happen back then. 

Sophie Bearman [00:19:57] Yeah. And speaking of Joni, she made your list with her song "California." Why that one? 

Rita Wilson [00:20:03] Well, you know, first of all, she was living in California. She was living in Laurel Canyon. And it was a place that was like Oz to me. They were all up there. Joni, Carole King, Neil Young. Cher lived up there for a while. Crosby, Stills and Nash, Jackson Browne, all these people whose music I love, they were all on Laurel Canyon. And so then you have this story where Joni is leaving, traveling, and then wanting to come back home to California and the way she sings "California" and the longing expressed in her voice for wanting to be in a place that feels like home to her is just beautiful because it is my home. It's still my home, and it's just beautiful songwriting.

Sophie Bearman [00:21:34] Is there a certain period of your life that you were listening to this a lot? 

Rita Wilson [00:21:38] Like every minute since the album came out to this day. Like she's mentioning Sunset Boulevard, A sunset pig. That's what they used to call cops back that during all the protests. And so when she says, I'll even kiss a sunset pig, that's how happy she was going to be to be home, right?

Sophie Bearman [00:22:00] I did not know that. You did? 

Rita Wilson [00:22:02] Yeah, that's what that is. She was writing about that kind of stuff, which she was very outspoken, and she was never hesitant to say the thing that, you know, maybe somebody didn't want to say. But I remember I was working as a ticket taker at an outdoor venue called the Universal Amphitheater. It's on the grounds of Universal Studios. And I could watch the concerts. And Joni came through there. 

Sophie Bearman [00:22:28] And you were how old at this point? 

Rita Wilson [00:22:30] I'm in 10th grade. And I remember sitting in the audience every night because they would play for like five nights in a row residency. And thinking, how, how, how, how, how do I get up there and do that? How do I become a musician? How does someone do it? You know, there was no YouTube to figure out how to play guitar. There was no I mean, I took piano lessons. My teacher slapped my wrists, wouldn't let me play contemporary. She just wanted me to play classical. Kind of turned me off. And yet I knew that people were out there doing it. 

Sophie Bearman [00:23:03] So from 10th grade, you wanted to be a musician. It was just the how. How to get there.

Rita Wilson [00:23:09] Didn't know how. Didn't know how. I just did it. No. 

Sophie Bearman [00:23:13] And I love that. For you. The actual pathway to becoming a singer songwriter was just realizing that you're allowed and have permission to to say what was on your mind, you know?

Rita Wilson [00:23:23] Yeah, exactly right. Exactly right. 

Sophie Bearman [00:23:26] So you chose another song. "I Will Always Love You." So I'm curious what this song means for you. 

Rita Wilson [00:23:35] Well, I was first introduced to the song through Dolly Parton. And who was the songwriter of that song? Linda Ronstadt was another one of my heroes. And the way Linda sings it in her version, it's just a different interpretation because Dolly's is very gentle and Linda's is a bit more angst ridden, which I think is just powerful. To me, it was just what Dolly is saying in that song lyrically, is I'm choosing myself over you. And even though I love you, I don't think I can be with you. And so the empowerment that the woman is doing in that song is taking on is combined with also the sense of loss that she is having to let go of something that is meaningful to her. And yet she knows is not right for her. 

Sophie Bearman [00:25:05] Is that something you'd felt at that point? 

Rita Wilson [00:25:08] Yeah. I just never felt that I was going to meet anybody that I was going to fall in love with. I really did think that it was not meant for me. I just thought. 

Sophie Bearman [00:25:18] Well, like, dating hadn't worked out or. 

Rita Wilson [00:25:21] No, I didn't have any boyfriends in high school. I was social. You know, like I said, I was a cheerleader, but I worked a lot, so I didn't really meet people on set. Most of the people I worked with were older. I didn't think it was going to happen for me, even if you know what? I had my first relationship and it was five years. I just did not feel that it was the person I wanted to spend the rest of my life with. And yet there I was, sitting there in a relationship I didn't want to be in. 

Speaker 2 [00:25:53] Right. 

Rita Wilson [00:25:55] I mean, no one's ever done that before. 

Sophie Bearman [00:25:57] I was going to say, you're not alone. 

Rita Wilson [00:25:59] And I but I was kind of resolved to the fact that I was not going to find the love of my life. 

Sophie Bearman [00:26:06] But you did. 

Rita Wilson [00:26:07] I did. I did. But older. I didn't find that person when I was, you know, 19 or 20. And, you know, I was more in my late 20s, so. 

Sophie Bearman [00:26:18] But of course, all these years later, you now have a family that's one of the most beloved in Hollywood. Is that something you're proud of? 

Rita Wilson [00:26:25] Very proud. I'm so grateful. You know, my mom used to say when when we were growing up that she would say, you know, your kids teach you. And I think that's very true. You know, my kids have allowed me to grow as a person, to expand my heart, my perceptions, my beliefs. I think, like, I can't imagine not having my family their everything, really. 

Sophie Bearman [00:27:01] So you started writing your own songs kind of recently, I think around 2016. And The New York Times said Ms. Wilson has a catch in her voice that conveys yearning and potential heartbreak behind a facade of cheer. Is there truth to that? 

Rita Wilson [00:27:16] 100% true. Stephen Holden wrote that review and he was very, very, very tough critic for The New York Times music critic. And, you know, it was intimidating to be reviewed by him. And so I was enormously relieved by that review. And it is accurate because I think, you know, I can say that now. I think as a person, I do put on a facade of cheer. I, I am. And I think it's not because I'm being fake, but I think it's because I'm an incredibly private person. And obviously my friends and family know who I am. But I think it's sometimes just easier to hide behind that in a way. 

Sophie Bearman [00:28:04] And how does it feel to break that with what you're writing? I mean, that must feel sort of freeing. I'm sure you're still very private, But. 

Rita Wilson [00:28:12] Yes, I do feel that songwriting has given me the opportunity to speak truth and be okay with whatever the consequences might be. 

Sophie Bearman [00:28:24] Your next song is "Slip Slide in a Way" by Paul Simon, which you covered on your duets album with Willie Nelson. 

Rita Wilson [00:28:32] Now, can you believe that? I just can't believe it. 

Sophie Bearman [00:28:35] What does this song mean to you? Why did you choose it? 

Rita Wilson [00:28:38] I think this song to me is is about regret. And as we get older, we can't look back and and feel that there is not a period of time or a few experiences that you don't think, Wow, I could have done that differently. I could have said that differently. I could have lived that differently. And and it takes a lot for a person to reflect on that and own it in a way. And so I love when Paul Simon writes, I know a father who had a son. He longed to tell him all the reasons for the things he'd done.

Rita Wilson [00:29:46] To me, that's about like how you. You can make mistakes and not even know you're making mistakes and that if you have a period of time to reflect. And in this case, I interpreted that to mean that, you know, he was divorced from his wife, the mother of that child, and he was going to tell him that he drives to see him and he's sleeping. So he turns around and he leaves and he never gets to tell him again. Another regret. So I just love the beauty of that. When I when I did the Duets album, I wanted to do it as this song as a conversation between a man and a woman. And there was a poignancy to me in the Willie Nelson singing, You know, the nearer your destination, the more your slip sliding away. I think he was 90 when he recorded that, and he's still gone strong. Thank God for Willie. But again, it's like we try to get something that where we're trying to get something and the closer we get to it, we think we're getting closer to it. It just becomes even more elusive. So I think that that is really about regret. 

Sophie Bearman [00:31:03] What do you regret? What mistake do you think of, you know, that sort of draws you to this song? 

Rita Wilson [00:31:10] I regret that I'm such a like, a good girl, right? Goody two shoes. And I regret that I allowed other people to define who I was. And that I think I would have found my voice metaphorically earlier if I hadn't been such a people pleaser and didn't try to, you know, make everybody happy. And I think part of that comes from my cultural upbringing. You know, I didn't have a mom who worked, so I didn't have anything to compare it to, Like, I mean, work outside of the house. She definitely worked inside the house. But I think I cared too much about what people think. And, you know, I I'm I'm in awe of people who are rebels. Do their thing, take chances. I didn't start taking chances until, you know, recently. 

Sophie Bearman [00:32:16] Well, could you please write a song about that? Because I can relate. 

Rita Wilson [00:32:19] Okay. Yeah. Good idea. I have one. I have one called "Rule Breaker." I think it's on the "Halfway to Home" album. 

Sophie Bearman [00:32:27] Okay, perfect. 

Rita Wilson [00:32:28] Yeah. Check that one out.

Sophie Bearman [00:32:29] I will right after this. Your last song. It's a new song released in 2023. "Some Things I'll Never Know" by Teddy Swims. Why'd you choose this one? 

Rita Wilson [00:32:42] This song, to me, is just right up there with Bob Dylan's "Make You Feel My Love." It is just a powerful, powerful song. And it's that confusion of like, what did I do wrong? He's so vulnerable in the song. He's so out there. He's like a raw edge, a raw nerve, a raw emotion that is that is putting himself out there, which I think is just so compelling and beautiful. It just draws you in. 

Rita Wilson [00:33:42] When did your heart let me go? I guess some things I'll never know. I just love it. And again, we would come back to this thing of loss and unrequited love and grief and having to sit with this pain that you didn't really ask for. It just happened to you, you know? 

Sophie Bearman [00:34:04] What would you tell your mom in terms of teaching you the value of story? Is there anything you'd want to say to her? 

Rita Wilson [00:34:11] You're going to make me cry. 

Sophie Bearman [00:34:13] It's okay. 

Rita Wilson [00:34:14] I would say, Mom, thank you for having your own story that you shared with me, because through your own story, I understood about humanity. I understood about integrity. I understood about love. I understood about loss. And I carry you with me every day. You're never not in my mind, in my heart. Never. 

Sophie Bearman [00:34:47] Now you're making me cry. 

Rita Wilson [00:34:49] Look at us both crying.

Sophie Bearman [00:34:54] Wow, thank you for sharing that. It's just like you are, beauttiful. Rita Wilson, thank you so much for sharing your seven songs with us. 

Rita Wilson [00:35:01] I just really enjoyed this. Thank you so much. 

Sophie Bearman [00:35:29] Life in Seven songs is a production from the San Francisco Standard. This episode was produced by me, Sophie Bearman and our senior producer, Jasmyn Morris. Our executive producers are Griffin Gaffney and Jon Steinberg. And this episode was mixed by Michele Lamz. Our theme music is by Kate Davis and Zubin Hensler. Clark Miller created our show art. Our music consultant is Sarah  Tembekjian. You can find this guest's full playlist at sf.news/spotify. Thanks for listening and we'll see you next time.