He shaped the iPhone—so what shaped Jony Ive?

Sophie Bearman [00:00:00] You're listening to Life in Seven Songs, where some of the world's most fascinating people share how they found their way and the songs that helped them through. From The San Francisco Standard, I'm Sophie Bearman. This week, we're joined by a guest who has likely had a profound impact on your life. Sir Jony Ive is the former chief design officer for Apple and is the mastermind behind devices we can't imagine living without—the MacBook, iPhone, iPad, Apple Watch, AirPods, and more. Jony joined Apple at just 25 years old and, together with Steve Jobs, spent decades transforming what was once a financially troubled company into the creative juggernaut it is today. In 2019, he left Apple to found his own design collective called LoveFrom, headquartered in San Francisco. Sir Jony Ive, thank you so much for joining us.

Jony Ive [00:01:11] It's a pleasure to be here, Sophie.

Sophie Bearman [00:01:13] So clearly, I'm sitting here with a computer on my wrist, a phone in front of me, a laptop—the world at my fingertips, quite literally. And this is something that I couldn't have imagined as a kid. But considering that you actually played a part in making it happen, I'm curious...did you imagine it?

Jony Ive [00:01:31] Not as a child. No. I did imagine a lot of things and enjoyed what I thought was a normal thing in childhood, which was to live in my head and play in an imaginary world. There wasn't really a limitation. And that, of course, that's the beauty of childhood, isn't it, that you are so curious, you can find such relish and joy in learning and exploring, and that's so much more important than being right.

Sophie Bearman [00:02:02] Well, what were you like as a kid?

Jony Ive [00:02:04] I was very shy and spent a lot of time in my own head by myself. I was incredibly curious, which I'm sure for some people around me, for my mother and father, that would have been, irritating on occasions just because I—I think one of the ways that I tried to engage with the world and try to understand it was to take it to pieces. You know, I was absolutely fascinated by what you would discover inside something.

Sophie Bearman [00:02:37] I'm thinking about how Apple products revolutionized the world and really pushed back against the status quo. Did you have a rebellious streak as a kid? I mean, were you pushing back against the status quo?

Jony Ive [00:02:48] It was less about being rebellious, because if you're just rebellious, it means that regardless of where you are, you're going to kick against prevailing thought. Rather than saying rebellious, a gentle description is perhaps eccentric. Because I have no interest, never have, and find no joy in breaking things. You know, the word that's often used is disruption. That's never a goal of mine. You know, if it's a consequence, because what I've been part of, what I've been working on, is new and is better...if, as a consequence of that, is disruptive, that feels great. But the idea of just breaking stuff because you're angry and rebellious couldn't be further from who I am as a person. I think being quite lonely and quite shy, what I thought was important was I didn't look to be affirmed. I didn't look for agreement from people to believe I was doing the right thing. So in that sense, I could be incredibly contrarian. And that loneliness wasn't alarming. It felt very natural to me.

Sophie Bearman [00:04:03] What music were you listening to during your childhood?

Jony Ive [00:04:08] It's curious. I remember almost as much as what I was listening to, I remember how I listened. Most of the music I listened to was on vinyl. I listened to quite a lot of early Pink Floyd, which I still listen to, but there was—I remember listening to The Police on the radio, and it struck me that this was music of right then. I remember it was one of their relatively early tracks called "De Do Do Do, De Da Da Da" which seems a very appropriate song for childhood.

Sophie Bearman [00:04:58] Sting makes it so easy, saying De Do Do Do, De Da Da Da...

Jony Ive [00:05:02] That's why he's Sting, isn't it?

Sophie Bearman [00:05:04] Right. We can't all be that good. But what—was it the lyrics that attracted you to it? Or?

Jony Ive [00:05:09] I remember really being attracted to the layers. There was something about Andy Summers and how almost iconic the guitar was, but it felt so measured. And easy is the wrong word. But there was just something about it felt very natural and not forced. There was an inherent simplicity, and it was therefore, I think, very, you know, you could really comprehend or understand what you were listening to.

Sophie Bearman [00:05:39] When I was reading about this track, some people would criticize the song for being "baby talk," and Sting said those folks completely misunderstood it. He said, "I was trying to make an intellectual point about how the simple can be so powerful."

Jony Ive [00:05:53] It's funny, actually, when I was just talking about the layers and how you could understand it, I think probably that's a function of its simplicity.

Sophie Bearman [00:06:03] It just strikes me that—and we'll talk about this later—your work, there's a power to the simplicity of a design.

Jony Ive [00:06:10] Right yeah, I'm glad you said that.

Sophie Bearman [00:06:12] And speaking of design, some of your earliest work was made standing next to your father in his home workshop. Is that right?

Jony Ive [00:06:18] Well, he was actually trained as a craftsperson. I mean, specializing in working in silver. So, I mean, easily would be described as a silversmith. And we didn't have very much money, you know, growing up. But one of the most, I think, precious gifts that I could be given was his time. I mean, he worked extremely long hours as a teacher, then as a professor at a college. And so at Christmas, we would go into the workshop and it was to make something that I wanted. So rather than me watching him fix something or working on a project that, you know, he'd been trying to get to for many years, it was to make something that I'd imagined, and the deal was that I had to be able to communicate clearly what it was I wanted. And that really, certainly early on, took the form of, you know, attempting to try and draw it.

Sophie Bearman [00:07:13] What did you make?

Jony Ive [00:07:15] Probably most memorable, I think, was a toboggan, which, it didn't really snow very much in London.

Sophie Bearman [00:07:22] Yeah, I was gonna say!

Jony Ive [00:07:24] I think I used it once and I was—I can't remember how old I was—I was probably about 7 or 8.

Sophie Bearman [00:07:29] That's pretty impressive.

Jony Ive [00:07:31] Well, you haven't seen the sled.

Sophie Bearman [00:07:34] What you're not telling us is you used it once because it broke at the bottom?

Jony Ive [00:07:37] Oh, it was unusable. But, I mean, no, it actually was—it was vaguely useful. It was far too heavy, but—

Sophie Bearman [00:07:44] It got you down the hill at least once.

Jony Ive [00:07:46] It did. At least once. But I certainly do remember seeing things being made from silver or from wood and seeing them transform and then start, you know, start the day as a piece of metal with no function, no form. I've never lost that sense of awe and surprise that it can be given such incredible value by one person working with it.

Sophie Bearman [00:08:15] Okay, so now we're around age 13 or so. You're sort of reaching early teens, and I suppose transforming from this wondrous child into still a child, but something a little bit different. What were your teenage years like?

Jony Ive [00:08:30] I would say they were characterized by accepting the things that I couldn't do, and not being defined by what I couldn't do. I love reading, but I don't find reading easy. And I love writing, but my spelling is terrible. So academically, I think I was seen as teetering on disastrous. And anything to do with making and drawing, I found just very—it was a very natural and happy place for me to be. I realized that my drawing wasn't about self-expression or wasn't about, you know, there wasn't a narrative to it. I would draw to understand what I was looking at and to connect with and understand the physical world. It was used as a tool for me to explore ideas and to communicate ideas, and then ultimately to help me make something. I think by the time I was about 16, I think that I came to learn that actually that was a career and you could call it design.

Sophie Bearman [00:09:36] So you go to study design at Newcastle Polytechnic in northern England. What song do you associate with college, this time of your life?

Jony Ive [00:09:45] There is one song. You know, I feel very aware of the way that you listen to music. The device, you know, it really enables or defines where you are. I'd saved up during my first year at college and I got a Sony Walkman. In fact, it was a Sony Sportsman, which meant it was waterproof and it was this fan—I thought it was an extraordinary design. It was bright yellow and it had the window into seeing your cassette tape was like a porthole, so it was like a little submarine. But I remember, because I was spending a lot of time traveling, I remember listening to a soundtrack by a guy called Roy Budd. It  was for a movie that Michael Caine was in called "Get Carter." I mean, it was an unusual film for England. It was about sort of a—it was a gangster movie. Because it felt so new to be able to listen to music as I was walking around or I was on the train, I sort of felt like I was in a movie and this was the soundtrack to my life.

Jony Ive [00:11:12] I'm surprised that I wasn't aware. Also, I wasn't conscious in quite, that this movie sees Michael Caine, who was originally from Newcastle but had lived in London and was a naughty gangster, this is called "Carter Takes a Train" because it's, you know, this is him on the train going up to Newcastle.

Sophie Bearman [00:11:32] I love the parallel of you on the train and the character's train journey. It's funny you just realized that, though?

Jony Ive [00:11:39] It's funny, I did. But I'm not a gangster.

Sophie Bearman [00:11:42] The one difference. So we're in your college years. Is there mentor or something you made, one or the other, that sticks out from that time?

Jony Ive [00:11:52] There was one tutor who—one of the things we studied was, in studying form, w e would make sculpture. And the way we would make it was in plaster. But the plaster workshop was just chaotic. I mean, it was carnage and the air was almost opaque with the white dust. The tutor was somebody called Roy Morris, and he had a terrible allergy to plaster dust. One of the things that was so interesting was he would, amongst this, this chaos and this terrible air, and he would be there with his, you know, huge full body suit on and mask, and when he would come and talk to you about what you were doing, he would get very perturbed and anxious if you did not clear a small, tiny little space which you sort of brushed down, and then you put your, you know, the thing you were working on in that space. And he was talking about the way that you look at your work speaks to, you know, the value you assign to it. And of course, we could talk about the value we therefore assigned to our self and our craft and our practice. But I will never forget, one, his sacrifice, you know what it cost him to be in that room, and his passion for helping us develop these tools that would, you know, be, I think, fundamental for our, you know, our future practice.

Sophie Bearman [00:13:27] It's like this thing you're making, no matter what stage it's in, clear spot for it because it has value and you can see it better that way.

Jony Ive [00:13:35] And the value isn't determined by the context, even if it is, you know, half-finished, even if the studio you're in is distressingly messy, that doesn't matter. What matters is the work. It was that lesson of elevating what you're doing not because it's good, but because you believe the craft is really important.

Sophie Bearman [00:14:00] It's time for a quick break. When we come back, Jony visits San Francisco, a trip that completely changes the course of his life. Stay with us.

Sophie Bearman [00:14:08] So did you just open an atlas and go, "Oh, California"? Or did you have a sense that something, design-wise, was happening here that drew you to San Francisco?

Jony Ive [00:14:36] Oh, no. I was very interested in what was going on in Silicon Valley. After I graduated at the age of 21, I went on a plane for the first time in my life. I mean, imagine as a designer, the optimism and the opportunity and the invention that San Francisco and Silicon Valley embodied. I was completely enchanted with the idea. And "Papa Was a Rollin’ Stone" was a song that I was listening to at that time, and it was by The Temptations. This story of change and moving on. And I still absolutely adore this track.

Jony Ive [00:15:41] And I remember arriving on a Friday evening and it was rainy and sort of foggy. And on Saturday morning I remember getting up really early and it was one of those beautiful, I mean, I almost want to say a September morning. And I just remember walking along Market and getting on a tram, and I just couldn't believe the combination of city and the most extraordinary natural beauty and the quality of the light. And I fell in love with San Francisco that August or September in '89. I actually started work with Apple, I guess, in about 1990. But I acted as a consultant, and I still loved San Francisco, and so much of my—I guess my heart started to really, really shift. And so in 1992, I moved down.

Sophie Bearman [00:16:36] So you get an offer to work at Apple and Steve Jobs is not there. He has not returned to the company yet.

Jony Ive [00:16:42] That's right.

Sophie Bearman [00:16:43] What were those early years like before he came back?

Jony Ive [00:16:48] It was a time, you know, Apple was dying. And this amazing company that I'd moved halfway around the world to want to become part of was drifting towards irrelevance. And this was one of the most relevant, innovative, remarkable companies, I thought, on the planet. And so it was a very, very difficult time. And I think that manifested itself in so many ways. But it was, you know, I certainly felt that I missed London and, missed friends and family and missed the culture I understood, and I'd gone from a very small design company that I'd actually started and I was part of a big corporation that I just couldn't understand.

Sophie Bearman [00:17:39] So what song marks this time in your life before Steve Jobs is back at Apple?

Jony Ive [00:17:43] I chose a song that I think is sort of slightly angry, slightly sad, which I do think describes where I was. And it's "Don't You (Forget About Me)". And it's by Simple Minds.

Sophie Bearman [00:18:19] Don't you forget about me. Was there a sense of like, "Oh, man, I've left my whole life behind?" You know, "London, don't you forget about me?"

Jony Ive [00:18:27] I think so. I mean, I remember getting some terrible advice and somebody saying, well, you know, you can always change your mind and come back. And that's only partially true, because when you've done something new and you've taken risks and you've gone on an adventure, you're not the same person. And I think that's—that's why I think in some ways I saw it as a nostalgia, that it was perhaps for a sort of a more innocent or simpler time. And this was a sort of a chapter that was really defined by Apple's struggle, but also me trying to figure out a new country and a new way to try and be useful.

Sophie Bearman [00:19:12] So eventually Steve Jobs returns. What do you remember about the first time that you met him?

Jony Ive [00:19:17] I remember it very clearly. I was in charge of design then. And, if you judged the team and if you judged me on the products that we were shipping, that would be one view. And I was shocked that he had the patience and the curiosity and interest to come and meet. And to spend as much time as he did, just looking through the work that was going on in the studio, which was very different from the work that we were, you know, developing and ultimately shipping. It's not really happened before, it's not happened since. And it's a feeling, I think, that we both had, which was just this, um, remarkable click. It's that feeling of meeting somebody who saw the world in such similar ways. But what was remarkable to me was, where I could think and process myself and develop a perspective and an opinion and develop ideas, but could barely describe them, here was somebody who could almost without thought, and made it appear effortless, to describe really complex feelings and perceptions of ideas and opportunities. He understood context and relevance, and obviously he'd already achieved so much.

Sophie Bearman [00:20:42] You chose a song about this period from '97 to 2011 of working with Steve Jobs. What did you bring?

Jony Ive [00:20:49] So this this is from a movie and it's "Define Dancing" by Thomas Newman. And I think this period, I mean, this is without doubt, I think, the most joyful and extraordinary 15 years of my life. You know, and the most joyful in so many ways. You know, my sons were born. The time before Steve came back, I learned so much. But at that time of learning, it wasn't clear I was learning. All it was was painful. And I wouldn't have been useful, I think, if I hadn't gone through those five very difficult years. But this was learning that was so clear that it was in service of what we were creating. And it was so optimistic, so joyful.

Sophie Bearman [00:21:39] This is from the film WALL-E. "Define Dancing."

Sophie Bearman [00:21:42] You consulted with Pixar on this film?

Jony Ive [00:22:09] I did. I was so fortunate in the time I had with Steve, and we spent time at both Apple and Pixar together, and so I had ideas that we discussed for the two main characters. So, WALL-E and Eve.

Sophie Bearman [00:22:26] Most people have seen the film, but for those who haven't, you know, there's these two characters. They hardly speak at all. They communicate through gesture and a few sounds and each other's names. But WALL-E is this, like, old toss away machine, right? His job is to crunch trash on a ruined Earth. And then Eve is this beautiful, white, egg-shaped robot. And against all odds, they form a deep friendship. So, I mean, there's so many parallels in what you had with Steve Jobs. Not in terms of the old machine, but the friendship—

Jony Ive [00:23:02] Yeah, who are you saying is the old machine? But I think, well, that's the beauty of friendships, isn't it? Is that they can be unpredictable and they can connect unlikely friends, people who become friends.

Sophie Bearman [00:23:14] There's a great scene in the movie where they're in space, like zooming around and dancing together. Oh, it's just so beautiful to watch. And it's like they've created magic. You know, it's magical.

Jony Ive [00:23:27] Yes. Everything to me, looking back at that time, was somehow heightened. You know, it's sort of the way you can see on a very clear morning, where every color, every shadow, every form seems just so much more than it typically would. And it was also a time of just extraordinary sadness, and of loss and of grief.

Sophie Bearman [00:23:53] So you touched a little bit on Steve Jobs passing in 2011. How did losing him impact you?

Jony Ive [00:24:01] I mean, I lost a, a very, very close friend. You know, we, our families were very close. And I lost a creative partner. And in many ways, though, I felt I lost somebody who epitomized, embodied a way of thinking about creating, a way of thinking about the importance of culture and people in society. So it was a pretty comprehensive loss.

Sophie Bearman [00:24:28] How have you managed since then?

Jony Ive [00:24:31] I think, you know, that's the the nature of life, isn't it, that it continues. And I have been so absurdly fortunate in the people I've worked with and what I've been able to learn. And so there are new glorious chapters. But they, you know, the chapters don't—they don't compete. They're just different. And so there's not a day that I'm not aware of him or aware of the loss. There's not a day where I'm not grateful for the time, you know, that we got together and for what I learned and what we discovered.

Sophie Bearman [00:25:13] So, Jony, you spent nearly 30 years at Apple. Of all the products you worked on, the iMac, iPad, iPod, so many others, which left a deep impression on you?

Jony Ive [00:25:25] I'm proud of what we did with the [Apple] Watch, because that's something that I started after Steve had passed, and it's really one of the most personal products.

Sophie Bearman [00:25:35] How come?

Jony Ive [00:25:36] Well, if you think of the trajectory of, you know, these incredible devices and tools started off, you know, at Apple sitting on your desk, and then they ended up in your bag and then they ended up in your pocket. And then it's on your wrist. And it's something that's worn and we have a different sort of relationship with things that we wear and things that are that intimate. And I've always loved watches anyway. So as a category, I think this is an interesting one.

Sophie Bearman [00:26:07] I'm obsessed with tracking my sleep. I'm actually a really good sleeper, not to brag. But uh—so I like to show my husband, who's basically an insomniac, like, "Oh, got another nine hours!" So I make a point of wearing my watch to bed every night.

Jony Ive [00:26:21] I bet he loves you for that.

Sophie Bearman [00:26:23] Yeah, he gets really mad. Well, I kind of keep bringing this up, so I have to ask, how does it feel to see your products in the hands of literally everyone?

Jony Ive [00:26:33] I remember when we worked on the iPod, and a lot of the things that I designed at college were white. And I think white's such a curious color because obviously it's every color. But it's still considered a neutral color. And when we first started working on the iPod, it was something very clear that I could just see these little white earbuds. It was also, you know, I think it was the declaration of, well we're not doing it in a dark color, so it doesn't, you know, we want them to hide, we want to pretend we're not wearing these. I think it was the thinking behind it, which was, this is part of one system, these are as important as the thing you've got in your pocket, I think is something that people forget. But the iPod took a while for it to become a broadly relevant product and to sell in volume. But I remember being on a plane. That was the first time that there were maybe half a dozen people wearing the little white earbuds, and I, I was just thrilled.

Sophie Bearman [00:27:45] You left Apple in 2019. What was leaving Apple like, starting your own design collective, and was there music that accompanied you on that journey?

Jony Ive [00:27:56] Yeah, I think there's a wonderful song by U2. It was one of the, sort of an early one, from early 80s called "40." The words are from Psalm 40. And I thought, that's such a beautiful, simple declaration: I will sing a new song.

Jony Ive [00:28:31] I think it's a lovely, I mean, it's a very natural thing, isn't it, that there are chapters and leaving Apple was, in some senses, you know, a terribly hard thing to do, because I did, and I do love that company so, so hugely. And there's just times when, you know, it's time for the next chapter. But one of the things that I wanted to do in this new chapter, I had two areas of focus. There was the goal to build the most extraordinary creative team that I could. And the other goal was to do that in San Francisco. I felt a huge responsibility to, in whatever way I could, stick around and be loyal. In the last five years, that sense of momentum, you know, growing. And I, you know, that sense that the most important work is actually in front of me, not behind me, is substantial.

Sophie Bearman [00:29:37] What are you listening to now?

Jony Ive [00:29:39] Well, actually, so this is just something that I just listened to very recently. And it's a track called "This Is the Day" by Ivy. I think this was from the mid-90s.

Sophie Bearman [00:30:13] I love it.

Jony Ive [00:30:14] It's a great track, isn't it? The nature of this, the tone of this, feels exactly as I feel, which is that joy and, I don't know, happiness of building something with people that you can't believe that you're lucky enough to be standing next to. But it seems appropriate for it to be measured and thoughtful optimism.

Sophie Bearman [00:30:40] Lastly, what does your father think of your success?

Jony Ive [00:30:44] I think he's proud of what I've done, but I think he would say he's proud of who I am more than what I've done, and that I've been sort of authentic and true to the things that I cared about when I was a child and haven't needed to become, or felt compelled to become, somebody different. And I get to one, do what I love doing and, two, it's what I can do. And I don't have a lot of choice in that way. So I am, yeah, very aware of how how fortunate I am.

Sophie Bearman [00:31:22] Jony, I thank you so much for joining us.

Jony Ive [00:31:24] I've enjoyed it. Thank you so much.

Sophie Bearman [00:31:50] Life in Seven Songs is a production from The San Francisco Standard. This episode was produced by me, Sophie Bearman, and our senior producer Jasmyn Morris. Our executive producers are Griffin Gaffney and Jon Steinberg. Nate Tobey is our creative consultant. This episode was mixed by Michelle Lanz. Booking help from Meaghan Mitchell. Our theme music is by Kate Davis and Zubin Hensler and Clark Miller created our show art. Our music consultant is Sarah Tembeckjian and our studio engineer is Sean McKenna at Pyramind Studios. You can find this guest's full playlist at sf.news/spotify. Thanks for listening and see you next time.