How Rhodessa Jones went from nude dancer to theater icon

Rhodessa Jones [00:00:00] I went and found myself a job where I danced nude for money. But all of a sudden I was thinking, do I dare tell this story from a live stage? 

Sophie Bearman [00:00:24] You're listening to Life in Seven Songs from The San Francisco Standard. I'm your host, Sophie Bearman. Our guest this week is Rhodessa Jones, an actress and teacher who created a landmark play in the 80s exploring gender, race and sexuality based on her real life experience as a peep show performer. Rhodessa is the 8th of 12 children born to migrant farm workers and became a single mother at 16. She's a pioneer who overcame a hell of a lot to find her voice, and then used her talent to help the next generation find theirs, eventually teaching women in prisons how to tell their own powerful stories through performance. Rhodessa Jones, thank you for joining us. 

Rhodessa Jones [00:01:10] Thank you for having me. 

Sophie Bearman [00:01:11] So tell me more about your childhood, who raised you and what values you were instilled with. 

Rhodessa Jones [00:01:17] I was very lucky. My mother and father, at the end of their lives, they had been married for more than 50 years. And I'm not going to say it was all sanctified and all peaceful and harmonious, but even their fights for real. You know, they were real and honest and to the point. And it touched me profoundly. My grandmother, my mother's mother, Big Mama, taught us through speaking her own story, her own truth. And then as I grew into myself, I found it was a very, very seductive ability to share a story. And I was saying just recently to my granddaughter that when you share your story, or you hear somebody else's story, it changes your relationship to that person, and it gives other people permission to do it as well. And then being a Black American, I wanted to be seen and I wanted to be heard. 

Sophie Bearman [00:02:21] Is there a song that was core to your family, that your mother and father would play in your childhood? 

Rhodessa Jones [00:02:29] Well, I remember, Mahalia Jackson, "How I Got Over."

Rhodessa Jones [00:02:34] When she would start to sing, it would just like, open the world. "You know my soul would sit back and wonder, how did I make it over?" And again, it's back to my own relationship to this country. But as we all grow older and we look back at our lives, it's like, I lived through that, I managed that. 

Sophie Bearman [00:03:18] So tell me more about what life was like as the child of migrant farm workers. 

Rhodessa Jones [00:03:23] Well, you know, you learn to work early. I have no problem with the lift and the tug of things. My father would say, "I'm a poor man. I can't help you. If you don't work, you'll steal. And you're going to go to jail and I can't do anything about that." And I think, oh my God, my father who could do anything? And he'd say, "Look. Learn to work." We were the potato pickers. And my sister taught us all to read before you went to school. She said it's because people are going to think because you're digging into the dirt that you weren't smart. And, as far as the travel, we'd be on the road by April and we'd be headed north from Florida, from our home, and we would be in upstate New York until September, October. We were high plain drifters, and we lived on the outside of things. 

Sophie Bearman [00:04:20] And, you know, you are 11, 12, you know, all ages on the road. But I'm wondering what you're dreaming about, what you're listening to, what's on your mind?

Rhodessa Jones [00:04:31] You know, we all want to be in love. I had my first real boyfriend, Peewee Walker, and I remember having to say goodbye to this little boy and how sad it was. I remember the last time I ever saw him. It was early morning, and his mother was saying, "You get back in this house!" And he ran out and climbed the fence and he said, "Bye Rho!" And we were just babies. Maybe we were six then. So to answer your question, there was a lot of longing. Longing sometimes that you couldn't even name. 

Sophie Bearman [00:05:07] You were listening to "Cupid" by Sam Cooke. Tell me about that song. 

Rhodessa Jones [00:05:13] Well, we all loved Sam Cooke. He was the prettiest colored boy we'd ever seen. And he was so successful. And if you listen this song, it's like "Cupid, pull back your bow."

Rhodessa Jones [00:05:46] And we all felt like he was singing specifically to us. You know, it was like, "Straight to my lover's heart for me." 

Sophie Bearman [00:05:58] Such a smile on your face. Where are you going when you hear this? 

Rhodessa Jones [00:06:03] Well, you know, the music too is the cha-cha. And the cha-cha was big there for a moment. Like the bossa nova. It dawned on me listening to it now that we would be dancing all over the road, you know. And another thing, my mother and father, when they came off the road, we still had a jukebox in our living room. And the minute my parents would go to work, we learned how to trick the thing so we could just dance to music all morning in the summertime. I just remember my brother Azel teaching us all how to slow dance to this kind of music. Yeah. 

Sophie Bearman [00:06:43] Rhodessa, what were your teen years like for you? 

Rhodessa Jones [00:06:47] I was really a tomboy, you know? But, like I was just talking earlier about wanting to be in love, because that's what everything from The Mouseketeers, you know, the world said that that's what we should be searching for is love. But thanks to my dad, you know, I could shoot a gun. By the time I was 12, I could shoot a rifle. I had to watch them slaughter my pig. 

Sophie Bearman [00:07:18] Did she have a name? 

Rhodessa Jones [00:07:19] Oh, yeah. Cruella. Cruella, you know, was the pig's name, and she would watch TV with us. She would learn how to open the screen door with her little nozzle. Then comes the next season. And my father said to me very sternly, you know, "That pig lived and died for you, for us." Because I said, I'm never eating meat again. He says, "You gonna eat because that pig came and went for a reason."

Sophie Bearman [00:07:51] Don't make it meaningless. 

Rhodessa Jones [00:07:52] Yeah. But I stayed away from that kind of attachment. It was like, I'm not going to ever get attached like that again. 

Sophie Bearman [00:08:02] Until it happens. 

Rhodessa Jones [00:08:03] Until it happens. Well, you know, I just think about my daughter's father. 

Sophie Bearman [00:08:08] What was his name? 

Rhodessa Jones [00:08:10] Bob. Actually his name was George Robert. And when we met, I was 15 and he was 18. And then when we got pregnant, he was at Cornell and I was still in high school. 

Sophie Bearman [00:08:25] Take me back. How are you feeling, knowing you were going to have a baby? 

Rhodessa Jones [00:08:29] I ignored it for as long as I could, you know? I mean, it was like—and I still slept in this large bed with my two sisters, and I think that they suspected something. But then I was the goofy one. I was the tomboy. My mother said, "Last night I dreamed of fish. Somebody in this house is in a family way." And she started, like, sniffing around and finally, one Sunday morning, I was in the bathtub. And my mother came in and my mother had had 19 pregnancies. So she looked at me and said, "Rho, you're in a family way." And my sisters ran away. 

Sophie Bearman [00:09:10] They didn't want to be there. 

Rhodessa Jones [00:09:13] Ran out the bathroom. But I was so relieved. 

Sophie Bearman [00:09:15] That she knew. 

Rhodessa Jones [00:09:16] Oh my God, it was just such a weight off of my young head. At the same time, the shame of it all, I wanted to just disappear. And then being a Black girl, which now I know the weight of that—I didn't then, but I knew that it was sort of this relegation, you know, "That's what they do." And my mother was mortified and my mother was heartbroken. But God bless my mother. My mother said, "Oh yeah, you're going to school. "

Sophie Bearman [00:09:51] What did you listen to to get you through it? 

Rhodessa Jones [00:09:54] "I Say a Little Prayer" by Aretha, and that was like me trying to figure out how to forgive myself. 

Rhodessa Jones [00:10:29] Aretha Franklin was another holy voice, as she had come from the church and went to the blues clubs and had suffered at the hands of men. But then she could just deliver a song like that, you know, and that whole line, "Forever, forever, you'll stay in my heart." My sisters used to say, "I hope you ain't thinking about Bobby." And they were like ready to eat him alive. And I just like, "Leave me alone." 

Sophie Bearman [00:10:57] What happened to Bob? 

Rhodessa Jones [00:10:59] Bob went and he became general manager for Levi Strauss. And he lived in Africa with his wife. 

Sophie Bearman [00:11:08] He didn't stick by you? 

Rhodessa Jones [00:11:10] No, no, no. And that was very hurtful because I took it all—you know, here I am thinking, "Oh, this is it." And this guy's like, "Ha! You got to be kidding. I'm on out of here." It was so hard, I never—I never fell that hard in love again, you know? 

Sophie Bearman [00:11:28] So you have your daughter. What's your daughter's name? 

Rhodessa Jones [00:11:30] Sandra Lee. 

Sophie Bearman [00:11:33] Sandra Lee. What happened next? 

Rhodessa Jones [00:11:34] For a minute there, when she was between like, six, seven, eight, his mother took her under wing, you know, because they had a lot more money than my family did. Oh, my mother was devastated. You know, that I let the child go with these people. And then my daughter, when I think she turned like 7 or 8, she said, "If I can't live with you, I'm going to kill myself." And I was like, "Whoa." 

Sophie Bearman [00:12:03] Because you were pursuing your studies and kind of trying to rebuild... 

Rhodessa Jones [00:12:07] Yeah, I just felt like—maybe it was just an excuse—but I felt like she was having a better break with her father's family. And my best friend Leah says, "I think you've got to change things and take her on, Rho." And I did. But it was so wonderful when she—because I was a budding hippie chick, right? And then I bring my daughter into this community. She learned how to crochet. She learned how to make bread. She was eight, nine years old. And it just opened the world for us. You know, it really helped me overcome what I thought had been a tragedy of my life. My daughter was just another jewel in my crown, really. 

Sophie Bearman [00:12:54] What song opened the world for you during this time? 

Rhodessa Jones [00:12:58] I think this is Dylan. Hey, "Mr. Tambourine Man."

Rhodessa Jones [00:13:01] People hitchhiking up and down the highways. My mother used to call people in and feed them. She'd say, "That's somebody's child." My mother was fascinated that this was all going on and white and Black children were hanging out together. The world had shifted and "Mr. Tambourine Man" was—it was like a shout to the universe, you know. It was so heart opening. 

Sophie Bearman [00:13:54] It's time for a quick break. When we come back, how dancing nude for money leads Rhodessa to the stage. We'll be right back. 

Sophie Bearman [00:14:02] So I know I'm skipping a little bit here and I hope that's okay, but eventually you moved to San Francisco. 

Rhodessa Jones [00:14:23] Yes I did. Everybody was really feeling that, you know, and we felt like it was closer to what we were about. You know, getting away from upstate, and not to mention upstate New York was freezing cold. It seemed like everybody that you'd want to meet was, you know, was here in the city. 

Sophie Bearman [00:14:44] So you move across the country. How are you surviving? How are you supporting yourself? 

Rhodessa Jones [00:14:48] My daughter was going to a public school in the Mission at first and doing well. So well that all of her teachers were constantly reminding me that she was as sharp as a tack, you know? And, by the time she got to, I think it was seventh grade, eighth grade, she won a scholarship to Marin Academy. Her father flaked on us, you know, and he said that he was going to pay for her essentials, her incidentals. 

Sophie Bearman [00:15:18] Now you are the one responsible, paying the tuition. 

Rhodessa Jones [00:15:21] Yeah. And I went and found myself a job where I danced nude for money. I walked in, they were like, "Oh my God, you're gorgeous!" And I had my wigs. And they'd be like, "Oh, Lily!" And I told my name was Lily. And they said, "Oh, Lily, you shouldn't wear the wig, you have so much dignity without." And I was like, "Girl, let's get one thing straight. This isn't about dignity. This is about dollars," you know? And no, I started dancing, and it was fascinating work. The peep show was such that there was a curtain that would open, and there was a nude girl sitting behind glass, and that was a dollar. 

Sophie Bearman [00:16:01] Was there a song that was like your song that you'd take the stage with? 

Rhodessa Jones [00:16:07] Prince. Holy moly. I think it was "Soft and Wet" was the song. 

Rhodessa Jones [00:16:11] The public could hear this stuff from the street. So they would, like, come in, like what is going on here? And I was a cutie, you know, dancer, tight body. And the stage is turning. So sometimes just my butt would be shaking. I'd be sucking my finger. It was titillating. You know, we were the night crew. That was how I named us. I said, you know, "Welcome to the fantasies in the flesh and we are the night crew." And I remember there were women that were very, very disgusted and sad that I was talking about it. I said, "You got to be kidding." This is one of the most amazing—because they did not hire Black girls in North Beach and they would tell you to your face, "We don't hire Black girls." And all—I talked about all that stuff. And I would always say to the gay boys in the Castro, "Right on brothers," because they would say, "Go ahead, girl." 

Sophie Bearman [00:17:19] How did you take that experience and turn it into art? 

Rhodessa Jones [00:17:23] I was writing, you know, when I was down there working, I had my own journal. I had a lot of questions like, "What is it about race and sex? What is it—what do men want from women?" And I would be writing this stuff down, but all of a sudden I was thinking, do I dare? Do I dare tell this story from a live stage? And then I did. 

Sophie Bearman [00:17:48] And you turned that experience into your first one woman show called The Legend of Lily Overstreet. 

Rhodessa Jones [00:17:53] And it set my career off. It was like all of a sudden I had all this amazing attention. 

Sophie Bearman [00:17:59] Fast forward ten or so years, you start working in San Francisco prisons? 

Rhodessa Jones [00:18:05] Yes. 

Sophie Bearman [00:18:06] How does that start? 

Rhodessa Jones [00:18:07] Oh my God. I got a CETA artist grant, you know, Comprehensive Educational Training Act, and that was money for artists. And by now I've been labeled as an artist. And as I said, I was already performing with a dance company. 

Sophie Bearman [00:18:23] Okay, so people are seeing your work. 

Rhodessa Jones [00:18:25] Yeah. And hearing about it.

Sophie Bearman [00:18:26] And all of a sudden the door opens. 

Rhodessa Jones [00:18:28] I get a call. "Would you be interested in teaching aerobics at the city jail?" And I'm like, okay, you know? And I always tell people I've never professed to be an aerobics teacher, but I was strong and I was a dancer, and I went in. Well, the women weren't interested in aerobics. They would love me doing handstands and walkovers, and they loved that I was the old broad, you know. But the idea that I could inspire them, you know, because I talked about my life as I moved. The women started to say, "Can we talk?" And I'd say, yes. I was training women inside to be storytellers, to be actresses. Then I said, I'd like to take them out of jail, under guard, and into a public theater. I said, I want to do theater as a way for women to examine their own behavior. I told the women the story about Medea killing her children in revenge, when her husband decides that he's going to marry up. 

Sophie Bearman [00:19:33] And this is the story from ancient Greek mythology, where Medea finds out that her husband is leaving her for another woman, and in vengeance and anger, she kills their two sons. 

Rhodessa Jones [00:19:44] Yeah, and you know, I had a mother who used to say, you know, "I brought you in this world, I'll take you out." But the women were furious about Medea! And they were calling her names. I said, "Wait a minute." I said, you know, "Well, how many of us know where our children are tonight? How many of us care that our children wake up crying for us?" And all of a sudden you saw people pulling back and it was like, putting themselves at the center of the story, not hating on another woman. And I said—and I thought—I got something here. And then I gradually started to call it The Medea Project. And people loved the idea of theater for incarcerated women. 

Sophie Bearman [00:20:29] Is there a song that you would play for the women at The Medea Project or something you listened to? 

Rhodessa Jones [00:20:34] This time in history, Marvin Gaye was the man. And "What's Going On" spoke to the country, what's happening, what's happening with race relationships and this kind of stuff. And that was a song I played for them. And the first time I played it, some people just sobbed. 

Rhodessa Jones [00:21:09] And I said, "And think about that question—what's going on, ya'll? What's going on that there's so many of us in lockdown?"

Sophie Bearman [00:21:21] Well, and just hearing the lyrics, all of them, but especially "talk to me, so you can see"—it makes me think of the women and what you were teaching. 

Rhodessa Jones [00:21:30] Exactly, exactly. And they felt it. But like Marvin's song, "Just talk to me."

Sophie Bearman [00:21:36] "Just talk to me." So what questions would you ask them to get them to open up? 

Rhodessa Jones [00:21:40] Well, one of the ones, one of the first questions always is, "How have you broken your own heart?" 

Sophie Bearman [00:21:47] How have you broken your own heart? Wow. 

Rhodessa Jones [00:21:50] And, "What would you say to your younger self now?" These were, like, very vital questions. 

Sophie Bearman [00:21:56] Can I ask you, actually, how did you break your own heart? 

Rhodessa Jones [00:22:01] By not loving and not being able to see myself, and also not taking heed of what my mother had said. You know, "You be careful out there with men." You know, my grandmother would say, "Don't laugh so loud with your mouth wide open that men can look right down between your legs." You know, and I'm still struggling with that one because I like to laugh. But I've thought about it, you know, that these were the things that I didn't—I just didn't know they were talking to me. "Oh, you were speaking to me too, huh?" Yeah.

Sophie Bearman [00:22:39] What would you tell your 15-year-old self looking back? 

Rhodessa Jones [00:22:43] I would—first I'd caution, "Go slow." Think about yourself first. You know, pretty eyes, pretty lips, all that's well and good. But find the mirror and look at yourself. Because you're just as beautiful. I wish for a world where—and it's happening—where girls have much more of an expansive fantasy. You know, being in love is great. My mother and father were married for so long. Marriage is great. But the women I work with, I've seen women give up so much. You know, because he said that he loved me, you know, and also getting us to take responsibility for that. That it's not always, "Oh, they did this." Of course someone was a part of the mess. But, you know, we put ourselves in harm's way. Not even to blame, but to look at it. Look at it. This is what happened. 

Sophie Bearman [00:23:46] What's the most important thing you want people to take away from your work? 

Rhodessa Jones [00:23:51] The idea that theater saved my life. It's the lover that's never gonna desert you if you don't desert it. You know. And it gave me a voice. I stopped choking. And I'm calm. When I first started seriously working in the jails, I just vowed that I would bring these women to life by never leaving the stage. 

Sophie Bearman [00:24:21] Theater saved your life. But do you feel like your artwork has saved the lives of others? 

Rhodessa Jones [00:24:26] They tell me so, yeah. 

Sophie Bearman [00:24:28] What song comes to mind that frankly captures this whole journey? 

Rhodessa Jones [00:24:33] I think it's "A Change Is Gonna Come." 

Sophie Bearman [00:24:59] That's Sam Cooke again. 

Rhodessa Jones [00:25:00] And that, you know, that was a song that he wrote when he started looking at the Civil Rights Movement. And, I love all of that. And I feel it all. At the same time, I've had a good life, you know, I'm blessed. I'm blessed, but I embraced art and culture. It was handed to me and I took it, you know? Yeah. Right down to my baby. Bringing my baby home with me. I remember I did a show at UC Berkeley, and it was about the passing of my father, and my mother was in the audience. And so I was sitting in the dressing room kind of scared because I didn't know what she was going to do, and it seemed like the place got so quiet. And then next thing I knew, my mother was standing there in the doorway. And she was all teary. She said, "But now I understand what you do." She said, "You tell your story as a way to lift the people up." And it was just like, "Yes, ma'am. Thank you." She said, "No, I mean it." She said, "You just lifted all those people up out there tonight." And I've never forgotten that. You know, that you tell your story as a way to lift the people up. 

Sophie Bearman [00:26:27] Rhodessa Jones, thank you for sharing with us and lifting us all up. 

Rhodessa Jones [00:26:32] Thank you. Thank you for having me. Thank you so much. 

Sophie Bearman [00:27:00] Life in Seven Songs is a production from The San Francisco Standard. This episode was produced by me, Sophie Bearman, and our senior producer Jasmyn Morris. Our executive producers are Griffin Gaffney and Jon Steinberg. Nate Tobey is our creative consultant. This episode was mixed by Cold August Productions. Booking help from Meghan Mitchell. Our theme music is by Kate Davis and Zubin Hensler and Clark Miller created our show art. Our music consultant is Sarah Tembeckjian. You can find this guest's full playlist at sf.news/spotify. I'm Sophie Bearman. Thanks for listening and see you next time.