How Robert Reich learned to fight bullies

Robert Reich [00:00:00] When I heard that my own protector, the person who had kept me from the bullies, had been viciously murdered by the real bullies of America... I think something changed in me.

Sophie Bearman [00:00:23] You're listening to Life in Seven Songs from The San Francisco Standard. I'm Sophie Bearman. Joining us on the show this week is Robert Reich, one of America's leading critics of wealth inequality. His tenure as Secretary of Labor under Bill Clinton in the 90s saw him championing the little guy, pushing for fair wages, paid family leave and a robust middle class. Beyond the White House, he's written 19 books and for years taught an extremely popular course at UC Berkeley called "Wealth and Poverty." Bob's early battles with grade school bullies over his height—he's just under five feet tall—seemed to have fueled a lifelong defiance against society's bullies like Newt Gingrich and Donald Trump, and more thematic foes, like plutocracy and oligarchy. Bob Reich, thank you so much for joining us.

Robert Reich [00:01:14] Sophie, I'm delighted to be here. Thank you for inviting me.

Sophie Bearman [00:01:16] So I'm going to actually start, and this is a little bit unconventional, by playing you a song. Apparently, the students entering your lecture hall at Berkeley would hear this as they walked in.

Robert Reich [00:01:36] Yes. Dolly Parton, "9 to 5." It was my theme song, in a way.

Sophie Bearman [00:01:41] And you're kind of a fan of Dolly Parton. I think I read a tweet where you said you're the same age, same height, same values. But she sings a little bit better.

Robert Reich [00:01:48] She sings much better.

Sophie Bearman [00:01:50] But, I mean, it's a perfect song for your course "Wealth and Poverty."

Robert Reich [00:01:53] The course is about work. And I have been writing and worried about the shrinkage of the middle class for many decades.

Sophie Bearman [00:02:05] So you mentioned in that tweet about Dolly Parton, you share the same values. And I also read on your Substack something that moved me. You wrote, "our values begin with who we are and where we come from." So I'm curious, where do you come from?

Robert Reich [00:02:18] I come from a little town 60 miles north of New York City called South Salem, which when I first got there at the age of nine months, was country. Absolutely country. And my parents worked six days a week in a little clothing store nearby.

Sophie Bearman [00:02:37] So they were small business owners. Sounds like hard workers. What sort of values did they instill in you, then?

Robert Reich [00:02:43] Well, I think looking back on it, the biggest gift they gave me was love. I was, and am, very short, a kind of a genetic condition. But instead of trying to look for ways of—as these days, a lot of parents with very short children, particularly boys, try to find ways to increase their height. No, my parents just smothered me with love. They told me I could do anything. They made me feel very confident. And I am hugely appreciative.

Sophie Bearman [00:03:18] I read somewhere that when they first moved to South Salem, they weren't particularly welcome.

Robert Reich [00:03:23] No, in fact, we were met by a—and I was too young to remember this, but I heard from them—that they were met by a little group of people from the community. My mother actually opened the door. She thought they were a welcoming party, but they were not. They told my father and mother that because we were Jewish, we were not welcome and that they would appreciate it if we left. Well, my parents apparently were not terribly happy with the town and the people anyway. But my father, when he heard that they were bigoted, that they were anti-Semitic, he decided that he'd never leave. And so they stayed there for the next, maybe, 25 years.

Sophie Bearman [00:04:11] Is there a song that reminds you of your parents?

Robert Reich [00:04:14] Yes, it's Hoagy Carmichael's famous song "Stardust," and I chose this song because it really does epitomize my parents relationship to each other. They were dancers. They loved dancing. Their years were very romantic in the sense of, the two of them together, and how they related to each other and even their business. There was a sort of romance attached to it.

Sophie Bearman [00:04:43] Would they dance to this song?

Robert Reich [00:04:45] They did. I remember them very, very, very clearly, dancing very happily, joyfully. There was a great joy in their dancing.

Robert Reich [00:05:16] I remember them gliding across the living room carpet with that song. They always said it was the best song ever recorded.

Sophie Bearman [00:05:25] So what was kindergarten and elementary school like for you?

Robert Reich [00:05:31] A little bit fraught. When you're as short as I was and am, the bullies really did see me as vulnerable. At the bus stop or in school on the playground, I was constantly worried. And, even in kindergarten, I went into the boys room one day, and you wouldn't think second graders could be menacing, but to a five year old, they were. And they threatened to hold me upside down and put my head in the toilet. And, I was petrified. I ran screaming out of the boys room and then didn't want to go back in. And had some embarrassing moments until, I figured out, with my parents help and the help of the principal of the school, that what I needed was an older boy to be my kind of protector. When I went to my grandma's cottage in the Adirondack Mountains he was named Mickey and Mickey looked out for me, although there was no agreement. He was just so kind as a boy, five or six or seven years older. I forgot about Mickey until I learned that he, in the summer of 1964, the summer before I went to college, he, along with James Chaney and Andrew Goodman, three of them, civil rights workers trying to get Black people in the state of Mississippi to sign and register to vote, had been tortured and murdered by the Ku Klux Klan. And when I heard that my own protector, the person who had kept me from the bullies, had been viciously murdered by the real bullies of America, I think something changed in me. I began to see bullying all around me. I began to understand that the definition of a civilization, the definition of a society, a good society, was one that kept the bullies at bay.

Sophie Bearman [00:07:45] Going back a little bit to middle school and then high school, as you started to grow up, what was dating like for you as a teenager?

Robert Reich [00:07:54] I was frustrated. Because, you know, when you get to be about 16 or 17, dating becomes important. And most of the girls didn't want to even think about dating me, let alone dancing with me. There was something called the Teen Canteen in the next town, every Saturday night, and inevitably, there was a very romantic dance when, you know, couples put their arms around each other's necks. But I could never find a girl to dance with me. So it was a sad moment for me.

Sophie Bearman [00:08:31] Is there a particular song that comes to mind?

Robert Reich [00:08:34] Absolutely. Thought you'd never ask. It's the Righteous Brothers, "Unchained Melody."

Robert Reich [00:09:04] I desperately wanted to have my arms around one of those girls and they did not want it. But "Unchained Melody" was the last song. Almost always.

Sophie Bearman [00:09:16] Was there a girl in particular that you were interested in, or it was more a general longing for love?

Robert Reich [00:09:22] There was always a girl I was interested in, and she was never interested in me.

Sophie Bearman [00:09:27] And there's something else you're listening to in high school. What song was that?

Robert Reich [00:09:32] There was Sam Cooke's "Chain Gang." You know, I used to go to bed. I had a little radio that I—it was a subterfuge—I think my parents didn't know I had it, or they knew I had a radio, they didn't know I was listening to it late at night in high school. But I listened to a disc jockey Cousin Brucie. Some people may still remember Cousin Brucie. He was one of New York City's first radio disc jockeys and I loved listening to him. And Sam Cooke's "Chain Gang" was emblematic of the kind of music I listened to.

Robert Reich [00:10:29] I think that I heard it and loved the melody. Loved the rhythm. But also, at some level, was aware of, again, the power dynamics. That we had a lot of people in our society, not nearly as many as we had 30 years later, but we had many people who were not making it and found themselves in our prison system.

Sophie Bearman [00:10:55] And I take it your parents weren't listening to that?

Robert Reich [00:10:58] No, they weren't listening or dancing to that. You know, when you're in your teens or even in your 20s, the music that you hear is foundational. It stays with you.

Sophie Bearman [00:11:12] So transitioning from high school to college, did you get yourself a job?

Robert Reich [00:11:17] I did. I wanted to do something that was a little bit unusual and through connections I got a job as a disc jockey on a radio station in Flint, Michigan. WTRX, "the big sound of music and news in Flint, Michigan." And I was assigned midnight to 6 a.m. to play the same top ten songs. That was the station's policy.

Sophie Bearman [00:11:45] Did you want to be the next Cousin Brucie?

Robert Reich [00:11:47] Well, initially I wanted to be the next Cousin Brucie. But once I was there for several weeks, I couldn't wait to leave. I played the same top ten songs, Sophie, all summer long. And it really did deliver to me a very valuable lesson, which was how boring so much work can be. Even work that seems glamorous, like a disc jockey. There I was in Flint, Michigan, the summer of 1964, playing the same songs from midnight to 6 a.m., and nobody was listening. I mean, talk about a fruitless endeavor.

Sophie Bearman [00:12:28] Well, and you learned a lesson. You learned a lesson about your fate that summer and the fate of many Americans in the jobs that we work.

Robert Reich [00:12:35] You know, for many of us who are privileged enough, work is not really work. Work is a form of play. But for most people, work is drudgery.

Sophie Bearman [00:12:47] Okay, so what was one of those ten songs that you were playing?

Robert Reich [00:12:50] Well, I remember the Four Tops, "Baby I Need Your Loving."

Robert Reich [00:13:13] Oh. Even hearing that song now I just shudder.

Sophie Bearman [00:13:17] Bob, I think you're also the first guest to  have chosen a song that he hated!

Robert Reich [00:13:23] Well, all the other songs I love, but that song really gets under my skin, even today.

Sophie Bearman [00:13:30] I mean, you reached adulthood during a really pivotal time. 1963, March on Washington. 1964, Freedom Summer. How did those events impact you? And where were you? Were you still home or had you just gone to college?

Robert Reich [00:13:44] I went to college starting in the fall of 1964. Let's put it this way. Dartmouth College was in those days all male. And it was like going to a monastery in Siberia. You know, if I wanted to go to a college that enabled me to be an activist, I would never have chosen Dartmouth College. I chose it because it was beautiful. It was a fabulous campus. So it was a kind of storybook campus. But, there were no women. And, it was very hard in those days, before the interstate highway system, to get anywhere. But I had a wonderful education. Now, I was active in the anti-Vietnam movement, but that didn't happen until my junior and senior years at Dartmouth. I went '"Clean for Gene,"—Gene McCarthy—who was the anti-war candidate, and I went out and started organizing states for Gene McCarthy.

Sophie Bearman [00:14:50] But before that, you got your first taste of politics because you ran for class president freshman year and won, right?

Robert Reich [00:14:56] Yes, I did, and I won again my sophomore year. In fact, one of the methods I used to get dates in those years was to put on conferences. And one of the conferences I put on was on educational reform. And one of the girls who was interested in educational reform from Wellesley College was Hillary Rodham.

Sophie Bearman [00:15:24] Sounds familiar. Yeah.

Robert Reich [00:15:26] Well, I asked her if she wanted to come up and have a sort of, not real date, but we got together, we went to see "Blow Up." I remember that. Yes. Antonioni's film "Blow Up" at the Nugget Theater in Hanover, New Hampshire.

Sophie Bearman [00:15:42] Was your date with Hillary, was that the first date that you'd ever been on, or one of now a number?

Robert Reich [00:15:48] No, but it was notable in the sense that I just thought she was—she was so energetic. And had a great laugh. And she seemed brilliant. I was smitten, but it was just one date. It was hours to get to Wellesley, so I didn't even pursue it. Little did I know, however, that had I pursued Hillary Rodham, I might have been president.

Sophie Bearman [00:16:14] And there you go. It's time for a quick break. When we come back, why Bob left school to take on his biggest bully yet, the Vietnam War. Stay with us.

Sophie Bearman [00:16:27] So junior year of college, you mentioned getting "Clean for Gene." What was that all about?

Robert Reich [00:16:53] This was an era where we were all very hairy. The men had beards, but we wanted to appeal to the Midwest, to the swing states. And so the McCarthy campaign was very insistent that we all get very clean for Gene. And, I went out with my little Volkswagen, left college—Dartmouth was not terribly happy about it—

Sophie Bearman [00:17:17] —like during the school year, you just had it off?

Robert Reich [00:17:19] Oh, yeah. I just headed off. I was so upset about the Vietnam War. I wanted to do something, and it was escalating. More and more of my friends from home, particularly, who did not get deferments from college, were being drafted and sent to Vietnam. So I had to do something.

Sophie Bearman [00:17:39] You drove across the country. Is there anything playing on the car radio?

Robert Reich [00:17:42] Yes. The one I remember is the Beatles "Lady Madonna."

Robert Reich [00:18:06] You know, it's interesting, Sophie. Until this moment, I didn't realize how many of the songs I chose have to do with work. So subconsciously, I'm still Labor Secretary. But yes, "Lady Madonna" was on the radio, and it's upbeat and optimistic, but, also has this undercurrent of anger.

Sophie Bearman [00:18:29] Sure. I mean, the lyrics essentially give an account, at least by my interpretation, of an overworked, possibly single mother who every day of the week, a new problem presents.

Robert Reich [00:18:40] Absolutely. And why it's such a happy song, I don't know. But it's not really. It does bring back a mood. It was excitement as I went across the country, but also anger and fear. I can't even describe. And it's very hard for me to, evoke, years later, the degree of upset in my generation that Vietnam and the Vietnam War and the draft created.

Sophie Bearman [00:19:19] Did you fear for yourself as well? Or did you always know that you would be somewhat spared?

Robert Reich [00:19:24] Well, I thought I would be spared in a sense that I had read the Army regulations. And if you were under five feet tall, you were not going to be drafted. But I wasn't sure. And I was out in California at the time. I went to the Oakland Induction Center because I got my induction notice. I assumed that I would be easily dismissed. But the examining sergeant, he saw me coming. And his eyes lit up. And he smiled broadly. I didn't know why, but I got up to his desk, and he said, "you're very short." I said, yes, yes. He said, "you're exactly what we need. We're looking for tunnel rats to flush the VC out from under the rice paddies with hand grenades." And I just thought that was the end. But regulations are regulations. And I was 4'11" and he could not accept me.

Sophie Bearman [00:20:27] Wow. So you had a very different path. You boarded a boat, right? You went over to London for the prestigious Rhodes Scholarship.

Robert Reich [00:20:37] Yes. Oxford University. It was a great privilege. Remember, this is right after Robert Kennedy is assassinated and Martin Luther King is assassinated in 1968. And then Richard Nixon is elected president. I mean, what a horrible, horrible, horrible year. And then to be able to go to Oxford. What an escape.

Sophie Bearman [00:21:04] A good escape, then?

Robert Reich [00:21:05] Oh, it was a fabulous escape. But I knew it was an escape. You know, this tension in my head at the time, the privilege of being a graduate student there, a Rhodes scholar. I met Bill Clinton there. But at the same time, I was aware that it was a fiction.

Sophie Bearman [00:21:27] Tell me about meeting Bill Clinton.

Robert Reich [00:21:29] We took the S.S. United States over there. It was a tradition. It was a six-day journey. I got terribly seasick, as did most of us. It was a very rough crossing. And there was a knock on my door, and I open the door, and there was a tall, gangly Southerner with chicken soup in one hand and crackers in the other. He said, "I hear you weren't feeling too well. I thought these might help," and I was amazed that he would take the time and trouble. We had just met. I was surprised at his empathy, his compassion, or his political acumen, you might say. Yes, that was the beginning of a long friendship.

Sophie Bearman [00:22:16] What were you studying at Oxford?

Robert Reich [00:22:18] Philosophy and economics, mostly. I had good professors, but I didn't spend much time studying. I wanted to get to know British students. I wanted to get to know British society. And I also wanted to indulge something that, frankly, became very important to me and that was theater.

Sophie Bearman [00:22:41] So what musical or play did you get involved with?

Robert Reich [00:22:46] Well, one of the first ones I directed was called The Fantasticks.

Sophie Bearman [00:22:51] What's it about?

Robert Reich [00:22:52] It's a kind of Romeo and Juliet kind of plot. Corny and sentimental and romantic. At least the first act. But the second act becomes very dark. And I think that I chose The Fantasticks partly because of that juxtaposition, because it was escapism. But also it was at the same time, this darkness.

Sophie Bearman [00:23:15] Let's listen to "Metaphor" from The Fantasticks.

Sophie Bearman [00:23:43] How did it turn out? Was it good?

Robert Reich [00:23:44] Oh, it was splendid. Got wonderful reviews and people loved it. I think Bill Clinton came to see it. But it was—it was just great fun. It was one of the highlights, I think, of my life in terms of just sheer fun.

Sophie Bearman [00:23:58] Well, I wasn't surprised to see that you chose musical theater because I've watched your TikToks and your YouTubes and you are a performer. So I don't know if that rings true to you, but to me it makes perfect sense.

Robert Reich [00:24:10] But I cannot sing, Sophie! I have an awful voice.

Sophie Bearman [00:24:14] Well, was there ever a point where you thought, "maybe I'll go into theater—directing or producing?" I mean, was there ever that turning point in life?

Robert Reich [00:24:21] There was a moment when I was at Oxford. I really did have to decide between public affairs and theater, and I chose public affairs because I just didn't have the confidence that I could make it in the theater.

Sophie Bearman [00:24:38] There's one more song we should talk about, and you mentioned loving Oxford, and yet knowing in the back of your mind that you needed to go back to America. Is there music you're listening to that reminded you of that tension?

Robert Reich [00:24:55] Yes. Leonard Cohen, his music. He was a Canadian, a composer, a singer, but, a brilliant, brilliant poet as well. And he wrote about the dark side of America. And remember, this is a time when civil rights and Vietnam really are beginning to impinge on the idealized notion that America had of itself. Leonard Cohen's lyrics, his music, found a receptor in me. In my days of being in graduate school, "Suzanne" was very romantic, but it was also—well, why don't we hear it?

Robert Reich [00:26:09] Judy Collins sang many songs that were written by Leonard Cohen, and "Suzanne" is the most famous. It was sentimental and romantic, but it was also subversive. Those chords and those notes were in a minor key. And those minor keys that Leonard Cohen used were a kind of emotional signal that things are not good.

Sophie Bearman [00:26:36] And you felt a calling to return at some point.

Robert Reich [00:26:39] I knew I had to. And the question was, what was I going to do? How was I going to take on the bullies of American society? I didn't know.

Sophie Bearman [00:26:55] Did you have a sense at that point of who you were, who you'd fight, how you'd get there?

Robert Reich [00:27:01] I don't know. Time Magazine did a an article on the class of 1968, and I was one of the people they chose. The headline from my section was "The Smallest Big Man on Campus." I engaged with bullies, really, beginning with the Vietnam War. And the biggest bully then, as many people remember from those days, was Lyndon Johnson. I just felt that social justice required good people to be heard, to stand up, to prevent the bullying.

Sophie Bearman [00:27:43] You've accomplished a lot. What are you most proud of?

Robert Reich [00:27:49] Well, my years both as Secretary of Labor and also arguing before the Supreme Court are sort of standing out for me. The Family and Medical Leave Act was important. At the time it was a major breakthrough. Businesses didn't want it. The big business lobbies in Washington put up a huge fuss. But, it was and is important. Although most other advanced economies, advanced nations, they have paid family leave. We don't have paid leave. I'm also, looking back, proud of what we did to close down sweatshops across America and also raising the minimum wage. But I think teaching. I began teaching in 1981. I ended last year. I taught many thousands of students, and I'm proud of that. Even if a small fraction of them went on or have gone on or will go on to changing the world for the better, I will have accomplished what I set out to.

Sophie Bearman [00:29:01] And this is my last question. Bob, how do you want to be remembered?

Robert Reich [00:29:06] As a teacher.

Sophie Bearman [00:29:08] Thank you so much for joining us.

Robert Reich [00:29:09] Thank you. Sophie.

Sophie Bearman [00:29:36] Life in Seven Songs is a production from The San Francisco Standard. This episode was produced by me, Sophie Berman, and our senior producer, Jasmyn Morris. Our executive producers are Griffin Gaffney and Jon Steinberg. Nate Tobey is our creative consultant. This episode was mixed by Cold August Productions. Booking help from Meaghan Mitchell. Our theme music is by Kate Davis and Zubin Hensler. And Clark Miller created our show art. Our music consultant is Sarah Tembeckjian. You can find this guest's full playlist at sf.news/spotify. I'm Sophie Bearman. Thanks for listening and see you next time.