Rufus Wainwright’s rough road to becoming ‘the greatest songwriter on the planet’

Rufus Wainwright [00:00:00] Some, like spiritual guru somewhere said that, you know, if you listen to this song seven times in a row, you know, it's one of the steps to enlightenment or something. So I did it one day. 

Sophie Bearman [00:00:24] You're listening to Life In Seven Songs from The San Francisco Standard. I'm Sophie Bearman. This week, I'm speaking with, quote, the greatest songwriter on the planet, according to Sir Elton John. I'm talking about singer, songwriter and composer Rufus Wainwright. Over the last three decades, he's released ten studio albums, written two operas, many songs for TV and film. He's been praised by The New York Times for his originality. But he said having the confidence to be himself was really just about survival. Rufus, thanks for coming on the show. 

Rufus Wainwright [00:01:00] Thanks for having me. 

Sophie Bearman [00:01:01] So in addition to the accomplishments I just listed, you're often credited as one of the first openly gay artists to be signed to a major label back in the 90s and do really well. Yeah. So I'm curious, is that important to you? 

Rufus Wainwright [00:01:14] There's even an argument I might have been the first in terms of, you know, signed to a major label where it wasn't necessarily used as a kind of marketing tool. I think there was another artists like in the 70s called Galbraith, who was gay, and they kind of tried to use it as like this, you know, ingredient during glam rock and stuff. Like it was this weird thing that that you could, you know, listen for, I guess on the records. And it was he he had a fascinating career and he had quite a tragic ending. But with me, it was just more, I'm gay and I'm on a major label and I write about a lot of things. And it was just sort of one of the facets to my life. And I think I was just so up front about it and non-plussed about it, it went under the radar. I think I was the first or second. I'm happy that, you know, I've helped a lot of people, I think, and also that I was able to just, you know, focus on the music. 

Sophie Bearman [00:02:13] And you've never really hidden your sexuality, right? 

Rufus Wainwright [00:02:16] Never, ever. Yeah. No, I didn't. I mean, when you think of other artists like, let's say Boy George or the or the Indigo Girls or, you know, it was always I mean, you kind of knew what the deal was, but it was, I would say like, yeah, this is about a boy that I had a crush on, you know, very kind of matter of factly. 

Sophie Bearman [00:02:33] Let's talk about the music, because you chose a song that comes from childhood, right, by the gay icon, Judy Garland. 

Rufus Wainwright [00:02:41] Yeah, I chose "Over the Rainbow" that really, you know, cemented her as a legend. 

Rufus Wainwright [00:03:07] It's one of the most perfect tracks of all time, whether it's her performance, the arrangement or, you know, the way it's recorded. And I also love the tempo, you know, because it's not too slow. One has the tendency and I'm very much in that camp, too, to really, you know, make it kind of lugubrious and drawn out and emotional, which, you know, she later did as well. But but but that one, it has a simplicity to it which you one can only pull off with youth. 

Sophie Bearman [00:03:37] Tell me where this song takes you, though, You know. Where are you? How old are you? 

Rufus Wainwright [00:03:42] Yeah, I'm from a generation. That was just before when we were. When I was a little, little kid. Around 4 or 5. We didn't have VCRs. So you actually, I think VCRs came in around when I was maybe 7 or 8 or something. And so you have in order to see a movie, you had to either go to a theater or it was on television. And "The Wizard of Oz" was on every year. I think it was either around Easter, Thanksgiving. I don't know. I don't know which one, but it was one of those perennial kind of events that everybody would kind of crowd around the TV and and enjoy. And it just, you know, it affected me incredibly deeply. And I think I was you know, I used to dress up as Dorothy or the Wicked Witch, you know, depending on my mood. And my mother noticed that. And she, you know, she she knew a good song. She knew great music. And she and she was a wonderful accompanist. So she taught me the song. And it kind of became our calling card up until really she passed away. I mean, we would sing it. Me and her doing "Over the Rainbow" was sort of a bit of a phenomenon. 

Sophie Bearman [00:04:47] You'd think that over the years together. 

Rufus Wainwright [00:04:49] Yeah. Like I did it with her at Carnegie Hall. I did it with her at the Hollywood Bowl and so forth. But then I also had other times, like one time we were in New Orleans and we were both very drunk and we've got up and sang it and somebody threw a beer bottle at me and hit me in the head. So there's there's different, different versions. 

Sophie Bearman [00:05:10] Totally. Very different versions. Yeah. Not Carnegie Hall. Well, tell me about your mom and dad a little bit, then. I know they are both musicians. 

Rufus Wainwright [00:05:20] Yeah, I know that. My. My mom and dad. Well, my dad is still a musician. Loudon Wainwright. He's a Loudon Wainwright III, he's a great singer, songwriter and guitar player. And he's, you know, considered one of the kind of classic figures of that genre. And he's very much admired. And then then my mother was sadly, she passed away when she was about 63, about over 15 years ago. But she she was also great, you know, folk, folk singer, singer songwriter, great, great, great instrumentalist as well. She played wonderful piano and guitar and banjo anyways. But they were yeah, they were just music maniacs, both of them. And it kind of extended to everybody in the family. Like my aunts were all, you know, my mother sang with my aunt and I with her sister Anna and, and my all my sisters are singers as well. So it just sort of spread. 

Sophie Bearman [00:06:10] What's your earliest memory of making music? I mean, you mentioned singing with your mom. Is that it?

Rufus Wainwright [00:06:15] Yeah, I mean, like that. That has to be because, you know, she really did start me young. I mean, she she could tell viscerally. I think that I was, you know, just aching to to sing and stuff like that. So she just kind of laughs right in there and would sing me, you know, would teach me songs and would play stuff for me on the piano. And I and I was I was suitably entertained. So. Yeah, so that that would be my first memory for sure with her. Yeah. Because I don't even remember anything else. 

Sophie Bearman [00:06:46] So, Rufus, your second song, you chose "Heart Like a Wheel." Which is a song from within the family. Tell me about that song.

Rufus Wainwright [00:06:54] Yeah. "Heart Like a Wheel" is is a song that my Aunt Anna wrote. It was on Kate & Anna McGarrigle's first record. And it really is in a lot of ways responsible for me being here today and career wise in the sense that, you know, my dad had a hit called "Dead Skunk in the Middle of the Road," so he did very, very well. But then on my mother's side, "Heart, like a Wheel," became a real iconic number for for that era because Linda Ronstadt covered it and also named an album, had an album called "Heart Like a Wheel." And and that was, I think, one of her one of her most successful albums. So it was, you know, anyone in the industry here in LA, especially from that time, you know, when you mentioned "Heart Like a Wheel" they all know what you're talking about. So it's a great it was always a great calling card. Not only is it an amazing song and I think it might have been my aunt and as first song that she ever wrote, but it was also, you know, it had weight to it and credence and stuff. So being able to say to a record executives, you know, my aunt wrote "Heart Like a Wheel," they knew what I was talking about. You know, I very much benefited from that song.

Sophie Bearman [00:08:14] Is that your mom or your aunt?

Rufus Wainwright [00:08:16] Yes, that is my mother. My aunt is the next singer.

Rufus Wainwright [00:08:25] Yeah, there's a quality to that period of record making that that really hasn't been matched, I think, in terms of the history of recording music. So it's just great to have her in that frame. 

Sophie Bearman [00:08:36] Were you close with your aunt? 

Rufus Wainwright [00:08:37] Yeah, I'm still very close with my and my Aunt Anna is with us. And, you know, we're quite close to I still. 

Sophie Bearman [00:08:43] And you mostly lived with your mom in Canada? 

Rufus Wainwright [00:08:45] Yeah. You know, I mostly lived with her. You know, my parents divorced when when I was three. And we moved I was born in New York State, in Rhinebeck, New York. But then we moved up to Canada when I was about three to Montreal. 

Sophie Bearman [00:08:57] So jumping ahead a little bit, high school comes around. You're sent to boarding school in New York. Not I don't know if it's not sent away or were you? 

Rufus Wainwright [00:09:05] I had gone to high school in Montreal, and I think it was I was having a little bit too much of a good time and I just failed all my classes. So both my parents were like, okay, we need to sort of figure something out here. So, so it was decided that I went to boarding school. I went to Millbrook School. That being said, my father had gone to boarding school and his father before him and his father before him. He was from a classic kind of American waspy family where all the boys especially went to boarding school. So I was also sort of following in the footsteps of many Wainwright's who all went to boarding school. So there was a bit of both. 

Sophie Bearman [00:09:42] So what was the impact of this school on you? Because I know you wrote a song about it later on. 

Rufus Wainwright [00:09:46] Yeah. No, it was it was incredibly impactful. I mean, I actually very much credit my experience there with totally, I don't know, setting up my life in a very positive and structured way. I mean, what was great about being away at school is that it just became like a microcosm of the real world. You know, you kind of arrived. You didn't know anybody. You had to discover everything. You had to sort of navigate through these different situations. And four years later, you know, you were either at the bottom or the top of the heap of whatever heap, you know, you wanted to conquer. 

Sophie Bearman [00:10:21] So where were you? 

Rufus Wainwright [00:10:22] I was doing like all the musicals and the plays, and I was on the, you know, I was on the artistic side, obviously, And it was just a nice it gave me sort of a discipline in terms of when you're facing a new situation and how to really yet navigate it, I guess would be the best word. 

Sophie Bearman [00:10:39] And your mom wrote a song about you going to boarding school.

Rufus Wainwright [00:10:41] Yes. Yes. I think my mother was a little more troubled by it. I mean, she she one, she missed me a lot. But also. She thought maybe like I had been sent away for misbehaving and that, you know, I was there was like a delinquent quality to the whole situation. But I think essentially she just missed me a lot. So yeah. So she wrote a great song called "I'm Losing You." Very sad song, but very beautiful song. 

Sophie Bearman [00:11:06] I'll just play a little bit of it and then we can talk about why you chose it as one of your seven. 

Rufus Wainwright [00:11:37] And that's me singing back up when I was, I think, 20 years old or something. 

Sophie Bearman [00:11:43] Wow. Did she write you a lot of letters? 

Rufus Wainwright [00:11:46] Yes, she did write me letters. Occasionally we would write letters to each other and postcards. But we actually communicated probably mostly with songwriting. You know, she would write a song and then I would write another one back to sort of them not so much answer her song, but at least to give her a picture of, you know, what was going on in my life through music. 

Sophie Bearman [00:12:05] You mentioned that you were failing your classes. Were you failing your classes because you weren't into academics or was something else going on? 

Rufus Wainwright [00:12:11] Yeah, I just wanted to drink and hang out and go to bars and be one and not necessarily one of the cool kids. It wasn't really like that. It was just I was focused on, you know, experiencing life through, you know, the reality of of it and not through, you know, books and stuff. I mean, I read a lot as well, but but it was never I was never reading the books that we were supposed to be reading. And yeah, I just I just, I just needed to grasp life as hard as I could, and that's what I did. 

Sophie Bearman [00:12:37] And that must have been at like, 12 or 13, though, right? 

Rufus Wainwright [00:12:42] Yeah. And it was a different era. I would sneak out of the house and stuff and I was sexually active at that age. You know, it was not a positive experience. And basically it's rape, you know, So. So it was I experimented and it wasn't fun because I was too young to be doing that. So I actually had to deal with the effects of that for for many, many years. And even to this day, you know, having just been unprotected. And at that time in my life was there are scars there. You know, I don't think it was great. Let's just say it was a pretty dark period because that was around 1987 and AIDS was ravaging the gay male population. And I, you know, pretty much thought I had AIDS for about ten years. After that period, I stopped after that that summer because it was just too freaky. But but it was yeah, so it was it was pretty dramatic. But also, you know, fodder for songs and stuff. 

Sophie Bearman [00:13:36] Thanks for sharing that. So you have another song that marks your teenage years. You chose "Raspberry Beret" by Prince. 

Rufus Wainwright [00:13:43] Yes. 

Sophie Bearman [00:13:44] How come? 

Rufus Wainwright [00:13:45] Yeah, well, I mean, that album was I was obsessed by that album. It was "Around The World in a Day" or something was I think that was the record the "Raspberry Beret" was on. And I would listen to it over and over and over again and get lost in Prince's wonderful jungle of insanity and sexiness. It was really kind of like an Elvis type character for my generation. 

Sophie Bearman [00:14:26] Describe, you know, Rufus at this point, like what's he like? Paint a scene. 

Rufus Wainwright [00:14:31] Just the memory that I have of that song, especially as I think I was visiting my dad. He was living in London, England at the time. And I wouldn't say we were having the best time ourselves, you know, we weren't really getting along. And so I spent a lot of time just sort of wandering the streets in the parks of London alone in the summer. And there was, I think, one moment where I was I'd gone to one of these old school really funky, kind of decrepit fairs that they used to have, like these carny fairs or whatever. And I was on some sort of beat up, not a roller coaster, but, you know, some Ferris wheel or something. I don't know, some, some machine that was about to collapse. And and I was just listening to, you know, "Raspberry Beret" on my Walkman. And, you know, the sun was kind of setting over London. And and on one hand, I think I was incredibly lonely and incredibly, you know, hurt and and damaged and all that. But but on the other hand, I was incredibly excited and incredibly, you know, curious and really, really seduced by just what the world had to offer. So it was kind of like a happy, sad thing. 

Sophie Bearman [00:15:42] Time for a quick break. When we come back, Rufus heads to New York City and ends up needing a little help from his friends. And by friends, I mean Elton John. Stay with us. 

Sophie Bearman [00:16:11] So, Rufus, one of your most popular songs, "Cigarettes and Chocolate Milk," which came out in 2001, has been called, quote, an ode to subtle addictions, although I guess the ones that you were dealing with around that time maybe weren't so subtle as well. Or maybe they were both. 

Rufus Wainwright [00:16:28] Well, around that time it wasn't so bad. I mean it was more your common your common stuff. But but it did get worse after that. 

Sophie Bearman [00:16:35] And I'm thinking, I guess if you're willing if you kind of paint a scene of where you were, you were living at the Chelsea Hotel in New York. 

Rufus Wainwright [00:16:43] Yeah. "Cigarettes and Chocolate Milk," I wrote that. It was at the summit of my. My kind of blissful using period where I. Where I was able to, you know, tie it on several times a week and and just wake up feeling, you know, slightly edgy and then, you know, go out and do it all over again. So it was and then it was, you know, New York in the 90s. And, and I was living at the Chelsea Hotel. So it was very yeah, I was living the dream. Living the dream before the nightmare set in which there's been worse nightmares than what occurred to me. But yes, there were, there was a fall ultimately. 

Sophie Bearman [00:17:25] What was that fall like? 

Rufus Wainwright [00:17:27] You know, the typical kind of. Yeah. Substance addiction, you know, just where I know I needed to drink every day or, you know, I'd start my hands would start shaking and, you know, and drugs were were sort of the always the be all and end all of the evening. And and I think the whole point of going out was to blackout like people always say like, my God, I was. And then I blacked out and it was so weird. And and I didn't know what to do or whatever. I was so shocked. I'm like, that was the point for me. Every night was to completely blackout. That was the goal. So, so, so yeah. And so and that in that that does that does get you into trouble after a while. 

Sophie Bearman [00:18:09] What about moments of joy in that period. I don't want to just like. 

Rufus Wainwright [00:18:13] No, no, no. That's total the moments of joy. And I wouldn't change anything. I mean, I really I made some great friends. I wrote some interesting songs. I, you know, I was, you know, there were very glamorous moments, You know, I remember, you know, being kind of high as a kite. I was singing for Carole King. I was. And I was I was they were honoring her. And I was just completely off my rocker and I sang "Will You Still Love Me Tomorrow," which she wrote. And it was an and it was a captivating it was a great performance. And it's actually on YouTube. And she just was, like, floored by it. But as so so there were I had great moments like that, but I enjoyed the the kind of surreal, surreal quality of it. I think that was one of the main things that you just end up in these situations that were so wild and so kind of unusual. Thankfully, I didn't you know, I wasn't in LA too much at that time, so I didn't end up in P. Diddy parties or whatever. But it was like being in a comic strip, you know, or some kind of, you know, Alice in Wonderland story, so that it was just a sense of adventure. 

Sophie Bearman [00:19:22] That's interesting. Do you feel like because of your line of work, you've pushed yourself to more extremes than you might have like to have lyrics to write? 

Rufus Wainwright [00:19:32] Yeah. I've always been very, very driven by my life experiences and what I do in my day to day existence. I'm just constantly mining for inspiration. I guess that's the right way to say it. So. So I'm bound to the way you know I live and that can be great. And it also can be kind of horrible because it's. It can become a bit of a cycle. You know, it became a kind of imitation of itself. And you would then you would just end up in the same spots and in the same rut and feeling the same way and hanging out with sort of the same people. And then the sheen would wear off. And that was when know I had to take care of myself and stuff because and at a certain point, definitely I had to sort of dislocate that arrangement and be more cognizant of the fact that, you know, if I really want to deal with my problems, I'm not going to do that by writing a song about it. I have to actually, you know, to therapy or spend some time unraveling the wool. So it's a it's an interesting existence. 

Sophie Bearman [00:20:34] Yeah. And in the intro, I mentioned Elton John. Tell me about his influence, because I think I read that he helped you get into rehab. 

Rufus Wainwright [00:20:41] I knew Elton John a little bit because my dad actually knew him. He was he had he had seen a few of my dad's shows in the 70s. And he was he was a fan of my dad's work. And so, yeah, when it came time for me to, you know, get my shit together, I knew that he was obviously someone who has has done that. So and I and I knew I was very lucky and very fortunate to have access to him and, and that I really should take advantage of that considering how, you know, how am I in trouble I was. So you know, I made the call and Elton immediately showed up. And he didn't show up personally, but he directed me where to go and kind of, you know, talk me through a lot of it at the outset. 

Sophie Bearman [00:21:25] So you're living in New York. You've reached some real personal success. And where does the next song that you chose fit into this? I think it was an Ella Fitzgerald cover. 

Rufus Wainwright [00:21:34] Yeah, it's a it's a Cole Porter song. "Begin the Beguine." Cole Porter for me is the summit of both lyrics and melody. I don't think there's ever quite been someone as quite as talented as him in terms of songwriting and doing both, having both of those talents. I mean, yes, certainly Bob Dylan and and Joni Mitchell, like they're all great. But I think even they would say like, you know, Cole Porter was in a league of his own, honestly. And "Begin the Beguine"was interesting is that the reason I picked it is that and I have tried this out and it is interesting is that some spiritual guru somewhere apparently said that, you know, if you listen to this song seven times in a row, you know, it's one of the steps to enlightenment or something. So I did it one day. 

Sophie Bearman [00:22:19] So you sat and listened to seven times in a row? Yeah. When? Where? 

Rufus Wainwright [00:22:23] I remember doing it. I remember enjoying it. I don't think you become enlightened. I think it's just an exercise that you can do, you know, fairly easily, along with probably 10,000 other things. But maybe I'll try it again sometime. . 

Sophie Bearman [00:22:58] How do you feel hearing it? 

Rufus Wainwright [00:23:01] I always feel great hearing that song. I mean, for me, it's also this sort of emblematic symbol of all this. Not so much good, but at least impressive and mighty and brilliant about the American empire and sort of a vaguely positive way. I mean, it has this strength to it that's pretty indestructible. And so I think a lot about the United States, too when I hear that song.

Sophie Bearman [00:23:28] There's an optimism to it. 

Rufus Wainwright [00:23:30] Yeah, that optimism and a confidence and a and a but yet also like a poetic vision, you know, it's very you're transported immediately. 

Sophie Bearman [00:23:39] For someone who I know is very political. Does it give you hope? 

Rufus Wainwright [00:23:42] Well, a lot of those old songs give me hope. You know, like when I did the Judy Garland record and stuff, part of that was just to reignite my love of this country, which takes its toll in terms of, you know, what what we've all had to endure. So, yeah, I often return to the classic American Songbook as a sort of, you know, roadmap to find, you know, a better way. 

Sophie Bearman [00:24:05] So your work has a several recurring themes to it, but one of them is love and even more specifically, unrequited love. I was wondering how come. 

Rufus Wainwright [00:24:17] I was constantly being heartbroken and kind of disappointed and. And mislead and. And I was very delusional about certain things. So it was a rough road from for many, many years. But but it also fed into my work. So I think it was also partially my doing as well, because I, you know, if I was in that state, I would come up with more lyrics and stuff. So it was a double edged sword, shall we say. On one hand it was very hard, but I was able to do stuff with it. So. So it ended up being okay. I have a wonderful husband now. We've been together for almost 20 years. 

Sophie Bearman [00:24:49] How did you two meet? 

Rufus Wainwright [00:24:51] I met Jorn in Berlin. I think it was around 2006 or 5. I thought he was totally out of my league because he was so handsome and tall and kind of strapping. But he pursued me and we got together the day after my birthday. So my birthday is always also kind of our anniversary. And yeah, we just knew kind of immediately that, you know, once we'd done the number, of course that that this was, this was going to last and, and that we, you know, needed each other. I think a lot of it was also cosmic in terms of, you know, the fact that my mother did die a few years later. And I really did need someone in my life to help me through that, you know, very sad period. And Jorn was, of course, there to do that. I wouldn't have been able to do that alone. And also we have a beautiful daughter, Aviva. So I would say I've conquered love, but I've captured it. You know, life is a series of patterns, you know, that come and go and and it evolves. And I think what's great about Jorn and I is that our love, when you're in a real relationship with somebody and you've made that commitment, you know, you have to evolve and you have to just shift. And we've been able to do that over the years. And it's not easy all the time, but it's necessary. So once again, I'm just very grateful. 

Sophie Bearman [00:26:11] Besides attempting to listen to a song seven times, how do you find peace? 

Rufus Wainwright [00:26:15] I don't know. Just just be really present, you know, in the world. And I think one of the main things is gratitude. I mean, so many times I'm I like to stop and just really take a moment to reflect on how lucky I am, how fortunate I am, you know, to both have like the people I do in my life and also have my health and have the career that I have and so forth. So, so, so a lot of it is is actually just being grateful. And then there's, you know, I mean, I'm a big cinema fan, you know, so I like to, you know, watch certain like classic movies that that, you know, transport me into nether regions where I, you know, contemplate the bigger thoughts and so forth. And, you know, one of the big things for me is actually we have a house out in Montauk, New York, near the ocean, and definitely jumping in the ocean at least twice a day is crucial for me. In the summer. I have to jump in the ocean. The ocean definitely feeds me and I'm always shocked at how. You know, I could be in whatever mode and then I just jump in the ocean and I totally feel better. It really does the trick. So jumping in the ocean is always helps. 

Sophie Bearman [00:27:29] The water can be very healing. 

Rufus Wainwright [00:27:30] Yes. Yes. 

Sophie Bearman [00:27:32] So another theme is opera. You've written two of them. You also had a love of opera from very young. Why does it mean so much to you? 

Rufus Wainwright [00:27:41] Yeah, I know. I had a really kind of a religious conversion to opera. It began when I was about 13, actually, around the time that I was experimenting sexually and kind of lost in this very treacherous environment. And and I think it was a little bit like, you know, when a lot of kids my age, what happened is that they gravitated towards, you know, Kurt Cobain and grunge music, something, you know, more dark or something more intense. And for me, it was opera that that kind of gave me more of a sort of a shot in the arm. And therefore, like an acquaintance with death or something. So, yeah, so I fell for opera and it's lasted to this day. You know, I've composed two operas, I've composed a requiem mass. I go to the opera frequently. So it's been a lifelong passion. 

Sophie Bearman [00:28:32] Tell me about the song you chose. I think you said in an email it's the greatest hit song in opera. What is it? 

Rufus Wainwright [00:28:37] Yeah, I mean, I mean "La donna è mobile" by Verdi is, I think, arguably the tune that everybody knows. Even if you hate opera or don't know what opera is, When you hear that, you kind of you understand. And Verdi is my favorite. He's he's my my guiding star. That composer and Pavarotti singing this aria is, you know, kind of the top of the line. So it's not the most, you know, riveting or most beautiful or the most, you know, opera could be pretty intense and very, very dramatic and very, you know. Really, really can really, really do a number on you and "La donna è mobile" isn't that. But it definitely grabs you.

Sophie Bearman [00:29:38] For like, 13 year old Rufus. What is it about opera that's capturing you? 

Rufus Wainwright [00:29:44] I think it's the intent. You know, it's. It's very serious, you know, and very sincere and really illustrated my, you know, honest emotions that I was going through. And also, there's a complexity to it, which I love. I love all the weird chords and the incredible arrangements and the and there's that. And I also love the fact that it's all done acoustically, so there's no mics and stuff. So, so a great opera singer has to really project with their voice over 100 musicians. That always impressed me. So there's an athletic quality to it, which I love. So yeah, so I opera's opera. I love opera. 

Sophie Bearman [00:30:21] So your last song is "Hallelujah," which is written by your daughter's grandfather? Leonard Cohen.

Rufus Wainwright [00:30:26] Yes. 

Sophie Bearman [00:30:27] But you you chose the Jeff Buckley version. 

Rufus Wainwright [00:30:30] Yes, I met him once, and we ended up hanging out all night and we didn't have sex or anything. We were just drinking and and stuff. And I was and I had been quite jealous of his success before because he was so cool and so kind of like, you know, beloved and successful. And I felt kind of nerdy next to him. But anyway, so I kind of resented him a lot. And that's probably why I hadn't heard his version because I just, you know, I didn't want to know. But then one night, we hung out and we had an amazing night, and I realized how great he was as a person. And we were going to, like, do a bunch of stuff together and we were going to, like, set off on this kind of friendship. And then he died two weeks later. So it was it was a brief encounter, as they say. 

Sophie Bearman [00:31:12] What does it represent to you? 

Rufus Wainwright [00:31:14] Yeah, I know. I mean, this song has been you know, it's a song that I that I liked at first, and then I hated it for a long time because everybody wanted to hear it. And it kind of drove me crazy. But then I now I actually quite love it again because it has given me so much over the years. And there's even like verses and stuff that I've only begun to understand, you know, now that I'm 50 and stuff. So and thankfully I never heard the Jeff Buckley version before I did my version because I don't think I would have maybe even sung it because his was so beautiful. I was kind of asked off the cuff to do it for for the movie Shrek. And I did it in kind of an afternoon and didn't think it was going to be like such a big deal. But it did end up being, you know, arguably the most famous song that I do. So I owe a lot to this song. And thankfully, I knew Leonard very, very well. And, you know, he was a big part of my life and obviously he's a big part of Aviva's life. So. Yeah, but but but Jeff Buckley's version is as my favorite version. Like a lot of people. 

Sophie Bearman [00:32:42] You change like a tiny bit of the lyrics, right? 

Rufus Wainwright [00:32:45] Yeah, I changed a little bit only because there was a typo on the lyric sheet. 

Sophie Bearman [00:32:49] You say Holy Dark? 

Rufus Wainwright [00:32:50] Yes, I say Holy Dark. It had been a typo and it sort of stuck, you know? So. 

Sophie Bearman [00:32:56] So it was sort of fits, though. 

Rufus Wainwright [00:32:57] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I like it too, because it's a little less, you know, Judeo Christian, which I'm not. I don't mind Judeo Christianity, but it's, it makes it less Catholic, I guess. 

Sophie Bearman [00:33:07] Yeah. 

Sophie Bearman [00:33:08] And I think Leonard has said that it's, it's a joyous song. It's not it doesn't need to be like necessarily religious right. But there's just just joy and emotion. 

Rufus Wainwright [00:33:18] It's an incredibly versatile song. I mean, in the sense that it can be religious. It can also be just spiritual. You can sing it at a funeral, you can sing it at a wedding. You know, it has this amazing kind of malleable quality that all great songs are all great songs, but some great songs have. 

Sophie Bearman [00:33:34] Your latest album is a folk record, which is a bit of a departure from what you're known for. And I'm thinking about the fact that you were raised with folk musicians. Like, is this some kind of full circle moment for you? 

Rufus Wainwright [00:33:47] Yeah. Yeah. Look, I turned 50 a couple of years ago, and. And that's around when I when I first released the folk record, "Folkocracy." And, and yeah, I know there's definitely something about, you know, returning to my roots and returning to, you know, the, the sounds of my infancy, which was folk music. So it's, it's all in there and I'm very fortunate to have that. 

Sophie Bearman [00:34:09] I guess looking at the seven songs that you put together, I'm just curious, what like, is there a thesis to them for you? Like what story kind of taken together do they tell? 

Rufus Wainwright [00:34:20] There are. Yeah, I know there are. Yeah, some of them are family related. Some of them are friend related and some of them are just, you know, my desire to be known as a classical composer, and therefore I never die. 

Sophie Bearman [00:34:33] Well, I'm very grateful you took the time, Rufus. Thank you so much. 

Rufus Wainwright [00:34:37] Thank you so much. 

Sophie Bearman [00:35:03] Life in Seven songs is a production from the San Francisco Standard. This episode was produced by me, Sophie Bearman and our senior producer, Jasmyn Morris. Our executive producers are Griffin Gaffney and Jon Steinberg. And this episode was mixed by Michelle Lanz. Our theme music is by Kate Davis and Zubin Hensler. Clark Miller created our show art. Our music consultant is Sarah Tembekjian. You can find this guest's playlist at sf.news/spotify. Thanks for listening and we'll see you next time.