OpenAI’s Sam Altman: the human behind the machine

Sam Altman [00:00:03] I think I used to be like a very anxious, unhappy person. If you had told me that one weekend-long retreat in Mexico was going to significantly change that, I would have said absolutely not.

Sophie Bearman [00:00:26] You're listening to Life in Seven Songs. From The San Francisco Standard, I'm your host Sophie Bearman. Our guest this week is Sam Altman, the 39-year-old CEO of OpenAI, the groundbreaking company behind ChatGPT and a leader in the development of AGI—artificial general Intelligence. AGI aims to create machines that can think, learn and understand the world like humans, or even better than we can. It's a concept with the potential to transform every aspect of life, for better or worse. But in this episode, a rare glimpse into the man behind the machines.

Sophie Bearman [00:01:06] Sam Altman, thanks so much for coming on the show.

Sam Altman [00:01:09] Thanks for having me. This seems like a fun one.

Sophie Bearman [00:01:11] So I hear that we're in your office right now, but there's nothing personal in here.

Sam Altman [00:01:17] Yeah, it's well, it's the podcast room, but I sort of—I like very quiet spaces. I don't do—noise is very distracting to me. And this is like the quietest room in the office. So I sort of ended up gradually—

Sophie Bearman [00:01:28] —just kind of camp out here.

Sam Altman [00:01:29] —yeah. I have an office at home that is like a, you know, many years of collections of personal objects, though. It's this room that I spend all this time in and pretty much no one has ever been in.

Sophie Bearman [00:01:38] What's the most fun object you have in there?

Sam Altman [00:01:41] I have a bunch of objects from the history of technology. And sort of they go around the room. And at one end, the side of the room that I sit on, there's a handaxe, which is one of the earliest pieces of human, or hominin, technology and was maybe the only one for more than a million years. And I stare at that thing a lot, and I just think about how far we have come from this single piece of technology we used everything for. That we started digging stuff out of the ground, and melting things we found, and combining them together...and now we have all of this.

Sophie Bearman [00:02:13] And Sam, you mentioned noise can be distracting, but I figure you make some exceptions for music because you chose a song for present times. And in an email, you said you probably play this song more than any other as an adult. So what did you choose?

Sam Altman [00:02:27] I chose the Rachmaninoff second piano concerto. I think it's like an incredibly beautiful piece of music, no matter what. But, for whatever reason, this became something that I started listening to when I worked. And so I would start playing it when I would sit down at the beginning of the day, or if I had to really focus on something, and it just became this very comforting piece of music to me over a long period of time. I mean, I was on a flight recently, probably 11 or 12 hours of flying, and I just played it the whole time, on repeat. So sometimes that happens.

Sam Altman [00:03:09] I love that there's the sense of excitement right away. And there's sort of drama. And it's a beautiful melody very quickly. This is a great part, too, when the strings come in. I don't know. It's a great level of excitement, but it's not distracting. You can listen to it very loudly. You can listen to it quietly.

Sophie Bearman [00:03:33] It's, for me, a very contemplative and calming piece as well. And I wonder, does it ever offset some of the heady questions that I know must be—

Sam Altman [00:03:43] Yeah, it's somehow, like, grounding music?

Sophie Bearman [00:03:44] Yeah. Because I mean, you have people lobbing things like, you know, 'the world could be ending, you know, due to what you're making.' Do you ever just—

Sam Altman [00:03:53] It's amazing how many things can go wrong in one day, by the end of the day. And then you kind of are just like, 'Oh wow, that was like quite a bruiser of a day.' And then you kind of fall into bed and you wake up and you do it again the next day. But somehow, starting with a grounding piece of music, that's sort of a nice thing.

Sophie Bearman [00:04:11] I imagine one of those bruisers of a day was about a year ago when you were fired from your job.

Sam Altman [00:04:17] Ten months or something like that? Yeah. On a Friday afternoon I got, to me at least, shock fired by the board of OpenAI. I was randomly thinking about it this weekend. Actually, this is a funny little tie-in. The only time people have ever—the only time there have ever been guests in my office at my home, the only one—was during that whole weekend. A lot of the company, as we were trying to figure out what to do about this whole thing, was over at my house and the lawyers sort of took over my office because they needed a place they could close off. And everybody else was just, you know, in the hallways, in the dining room and the kitchen and outside in the garden or whatever. But the reason I was thinking about it is I was going through just some stuff, cleaning out my office for the first time. And I found a bunch of stuff they had printed out that weekend. And then kind of left there because we all then, you know, kind of came back here to this office when stuff was done. I mean, the whole thing was a just wild, crazy, like, what the fuck confusing moment. And then it was over and we had to pick up the pieces.

Sophie Bearman [00:05:22] A year later, or close to a year later, how would you say that whole episode has changed you?

Sam Altman [00:05:30] There are all these issues about like, 'oh, I learned this lesson, or I learned that lesson,' or I will like never make this particular corporate governance mistake again. But I think that's not what you're asking. So it was this crazy traumatic thing to go through. And it was quite public. Like, it was just in the news loudly and a lot of it and just sort of—it was very painful and sort of shameful. And then it felt very unfair because, you know, I'm not the one that made this mess, and now I gotta deal with it or whatever. And I didn't get time—because it was a lot of pieces to pick up—I didn't get time to deal with it or recover. And the first few months were just this crazy fugue. It took a lot out of me. But a couple of positive things that I think really did change me is, one, I learned a lot about gratitude. There's just overwhelming gratitude for the people around me and what I get to do. And then I really learned that I—and I think in a good way—that I really value a sense of duty and that you don't turn your back on things no matter how hard they are if it's what you signed up for and what you feel committed to and what you think is important. And that was a real growing up moment for me and something that I'm proud of and happy about.

Sophie Bearman [00:06:49] Yeah. So let's go back a little bit just quickly. So you grew up in suburban St. Louis, eldest of four siblings. It's been chronicled a lot that you were pretty precocious as a kid, famously fixing the family VCR at age three—

Sam Altman [00:07:04] —I don't know if that's true. I don't remember three, but—

Sophie Bearman [00:07:06] —that's what they say.

Sam Altman [00:07:06] —parents say that.

Sophie Bearman [00:07:09] Parents say that. Coding by age eight—yes, no?

Sam Altman [00:07:10] That's true.

Sophie Bearman [00:07:11] That's true, okay. Maybe just tell me something random then that isn't known.

Sam Altman [00:07:15] Well, I was just in St. Louis a few days ago, and we lived near this park called Forest Park. A big park. And there's this 10-kilometer bike trail around it. And I would ride around that with my dad. But a thing that I had forgotten was there's a little pond in the park and there's a thing there called The Boathouse where you could rent these little boats. And I worked there when I was 15 or something, and I had totally forgotten about this, but it was just such a happy time to be on the dock, you know, cleaning off boats and getting people in and out of them. I really loved it.

Sophie Bearman [00:07:47] It's nice to work outside sometimes.

Sam Altman [00:07:48] It was fun, yeah.

Sophie Bearman [00:07:49] Just because you mentioned your dad and because later you chose a song about him—just a few words on him growing up?

Sam Altman [00:07:57] Like, totally wonderful guy. One of the many things I really loved about my dad is that he was great at taking an interest in whatever we took an interest in. And as a kid I was just like, 'oh, isn't that cool that we had all the same interests.' And, you know, it's clear to me now that he was like, 'oh, if my kid likes scuba diving, I'm going to like—

Sophie Bearman [00:08:13] —I'm going to get into it.

Sam Altman [00:08:14] I think he did end up really, really loving it, but he got into it so that we could have something to do together. And many other examples like that, which was very cool.

Sophie Bearman [00:08:20] So you chose your next song for your high school years. Tell me what you picked.

Sam Altman [00:08:26] "What's My Age Again?" by Blink-182. You know, this is not a "good song" by any definition of the word good song—

Sophie Bearman [00:08:34] —you said it, not me.

Sam Altman [00:08:35] —nor is Blink-182 a good band. But I love Blink-182. And one of the things that was interesting about choosing the songs for this is, with a couple of exceptions, none of these are what I would say are my favorite songs. But they were the songs that came loaded with the most emotional attachment. And this one really brought back a flood of memories of being in high school and being with my friends and, you know, doing whatever you do and running around the city.

Sophie Bearman [00:09:18] This makes me want to, like, really bang my head up and down.

Sam Altman [00:09:21] It does.

Sophie Bearman [00:09:21] Is that kinda what you want to do?

Sam Altman [00:09:23] Somewhat but, like, less than you I guess.

Sophie Bearman [00:09:29] Okay. I got a kick out of you choosing this song, though, and I'm reading into it, so it's a stretch. But, you know, the title again is "What's My Age Again?" and Paul Graham, co-founder of Y Combinator, wrote this really famous essay in 2007 titled "Why To Not Not Start a Startup." And the first reason he lists is that a founder is "too young." And he basically uses you as the counter-example. He says, this guy, Sam Altman, is 19, but on the inside, he's like a 40-year-old. So I guess I was just curious, like, did that ring true then and now, like, do you feel your age?

Sam Altman [00:10:06] Actually, if anything, I feel younger and less mature.

Sophie Bearman [00:10:10] Really?

Sam Altman [00:10:10] I would say so. At 19, I probably felt older than other 19-year-olds.

Sophie Bearman [00:10:15] And now it's feeling youthful? I mean, 40 is youthful.

Sam Altman [00:10:19] I mean, in some sense I do have like a lot of responsibility, but I'm not like a serious person.

Sophie Bearman [00:10:25] Okay, so Sam, we're jumping ahead again. You went to Stanford for two years, then you dropped out to launch a company. But you did choose a song from your two years in college.

Sam Altman [00:10:33] I did. I picked "That Was a Crazy Game of Poker" by O.A.R. I liked this song in kind of late high school, too, but it's like a great road trip song. And we did a lot of road trips. I had this Volvo 850, the station wagon. I mean, in my memories, it was just this chunk of steel and it was really slow, really kind of broke a lot. But I really loved it a lot. And we would, friends and I, do these road trips around California and California's pretty awesome, you know, you can go to Yosemite one weekend...

Sophie Bearman [00:11:05] National Parks...

Sam Altman [00:11:05] Yeah, exactly. And for whatever reason, this song became one of the very much repeat songs. And I've talked to other people since when this song has come up or whatever, where people are like, 'that's my favorite road trip song of all time.' So I think there's something about it which is fun and everybody sings along and it's, you know, it's just like a—there's like something about this and driving with the windows down that clicked and that was something we did on a lot of the weekends.

Sam Altman [00:11:50] So interestingly, this is a song I never listen to anymore. And also in the category of what I would say is not a great piece of music. But for whatever reason at the time it just really was something we all loved.

Sophie Bearman [00:12:04] But I thought you might have chosen it because you also played poker in college?

Sam Altman [00:12:08] I did. I mean, I still play poker. I never listen to the song though.

Sophie Bearman [00:12:12] I mean, it's not like you have to do one to do the other, right?

Sam Altman [00:12:14] Right. No, I think no connection.

Sophie Bearman [00:12:17] Okay. So after college, you pitched your company Loopt, which was a location tracking tool, to Y Combinator, the start-up accelerator. They invested in you. You were 19. You worked on Loopt for around seven years, eventually selling it for $43 million. Took some time off. There's a gap. And a bit later, we're really kind of condensing time, but you became the president of Y Combinator, 2014 to 2019, and you chose a song from that period, I believe.

Sam Altman [00:12:46] So one of the things I feel very fortunate to have gotten to do and would love for more people to be able to do is I took a long time off between that start-up and then doing Y Combinator. And that was like—I look back at that as one of the most fun times of my whole life so far.

Sophie Bearman [00:13:04] Did you travel?

Sam Altman [00:13:05] Traveled a ton, learned a bunch of stuff. Picked up a bunch of hobbies.

Sophie Bearman [00:13:09] Hobbies you still have?

Sam Altman [00:13:10] There's unfortunately no time for any hobbies whatsoever right now. I spend time with people I love and I work and that's it. But hobbies that I aspire to get back to someday. But it was a really lovely time. And I started going on camping trips then with this group of college friends. We went on an annual camping trip for a while, and now we've all gotten too busy and stopped. But that got to this next song that I chose.

Sophie Bearman [00:13:34] You chose "Opus" by Erik Prydz.

Sam Altman [00:13:37] As music selection goes for laying out under the stars in a sleeping bag and listening to a song and talking to very close friends, I think it is hard to pick one that is a lot better than this.

Sam Altman [00:14:14] It like really builds over the course of the song and it's like an intense journey to go on.

Sophie Bearman [00:14:19] Yeah, I mean, to me it feels like the universe is building or something.

Sam Altman [00:14:24] One of my friends said it felt like you were going through your whole life each time is plays.

Sophie Bearman [00:14:27] Yeah.

Sam Altman [00:14:28] But I think the universe building and then, you know, collapsing back and then starting again.

Sophie Bearman [00:14:33] What are you guys talking about, dreaming about, when something like this is playing?

Sam Altman [00:14:37] You know, one of those years, it was all about AGI. I think this song came out probably, would you say 2016?

Sophie Bearman [00:14:42] Mhmm.

Sam Altman [00:14:43] So that was like when OpenAI really got going. And I was like, 'man, this whole AGI thing is going to be super wild someday.' And it's sort of a good song for that too.

Sophie Bearman [00:14:55] It's time for a quick break. When we come back, Sam talks psychedelics. Stay with us.

Sophie Bearman [00:15:01] You chose a song to represent your connection to Burning Man as well. How many Burns have you been to?

Sam Altman [00:15:24] A handful. I mean, more than a handful. I don't know, like five or six.

Sophie Bearman [00:15:28] Okay.

Sam Altman [00:15:28] I was super anti-Burning Man for a long time.

Sophie Bearman [00:15:31] Like, you'd never been and you just had an impression of it?

Sam Altman [00:15:33] Never been and I had the identity of 'I don't do that thing.' That is a ridiculous, escapism, crazy party. Like, whatever it is, I don't want to be associated with that. And then the first time I went, I was like, 'oh, everyone's so happy.' This is one possible, like, part of what the post-AGI world can look like, where people are just focused on doing stuff for each other, caring for each other and making incredible gifts to give each other. You know, this incredible art—

Sophie Bearman [00:16:04] You mean like when we don't have to work anymore because the robots are—

Sam Altman [00:16:07] —or we work in a new kind of way. The people that make the Burning Man art projects do incredible amounts of work, and they do it for people that they don't necessarily know, and they just want to do something like give an amazing gift to. And I was like, the art's amazing, the music's amazing. I remember the first time I ever got there, I was sharing a friend's RV. And I got in there and I went to sleep. And everybody else had already gone out for the night. But I was itching to go see all this. And so I put on my hiking boots and my headlamp and my little backpack and stuff. And I walked out to the playa for the first time and I was just like, 'what!' It was unbelievable. I was like, 'this is the most beautiful man-made thing I have ever seen by far.' You know, everything lit up. All these lights. All this incredible art. People just biking around. Everyone so happy, so engaged, so present that I was like, 'okay, I was wrong to be so negative on Burning Man. There's something about this.' And then it just became a thing that I enjoyed doing. Again, I was never like, 'my whole life is about Burning Man.' But I really looked forward to going and loved it and thought it was—I still think it is—uh, I didn't get to go this year and was sad, or last year, but just an amazing thing.

Sophie Bearman [00:17:15] Is it hard more recently to be you and still have that experience?

Sam Altman [00:17:20] Um, yes, but you gotta just live your life.

Sophie Bearman [00:17:23] I only ask because I saw the last couple of years you've given talks at Burning Man, but maybe it's harder to just...be at Burning Man?

Sam Altman [00:17:29] Totally. Yeah.

Sophie Bearman [00:17:33] So you chose a song "Underwater" by Rufus du Sol?

Sam Altman [00:17:36] Yeah, I think Rufus is just unbelievable Burning Man music for whatever reason. And that is the song that brings the Burning Man memories.

Sam Altman [00:18:04] One thing I love about them is I think they really have their own sound. It's like unmistakable music to me. And it's just great, happy, relaxed vibes. It's not too intense.

Sophie Bearman [00:18:15] But I'm going to push you a little bit. Maybe you don't listen to the lyrics. And actually, you chose a lot of songs with no lyrics, so I believe you if you say that you don't. But this song is really about feeling stuck and drowned and then asking for help and getting a perspective shift, which is Burning Man to me.

Sam Altman [00:18:31] I think like many other people, I have often really liked a song for a long period of time and never consciously paid attention to the lyrics. And then way after the fact in life, like realized, 'oh, that's what they're about.' And they do somehow deeply resonate with me. So I assume there's something going on there.

Sophie Bearman [00:18:53] Have you had any psychedelic experiences at Burning Man?

Sam Altman [00:18:56] Yes.

Sophie Bearman [00:18:56] Were those transformative for you and how you think about your work?

Sam Altman [00:19:03] I think psychedelic experiences can be totally incredible. And the ones that have been life changing for me have been ones where you go travel to a guide and it's like very much psychedelic medicine. The Burning Man version has been, I would say, less transformative, and not something I've done a lot of. I'm like a rare—Burning Man is, like, enough on its own. I don't need the enhancement. But obviously a super fun thing.

Sophie Bearman [00:19:34] The ones that are guided. How does that play into your work?

Sam Altman [00:19:38] This was all like a long time ago, but I would say it was one of the most transformative things in my life. I think I used to be like a very anxious, unhappy person. And if you had told me that, like, one weekend long retreat in Mexico was going to significantly change that, I would have said absolutely not. And it really did.

Sophie Bearman [00:19:57] And change you how?

Sam Altman [00:19:58] I mean, a lot of ways. I think a big one, though, is I feel like a very calm person now. And that has been super helpful to me just from a quality of life perspective, but also ability to, I think, work on hard and, you know, important to me stuff. So I'm very grateful for that.

Sophie Bearman [00:20:17] So, Sam, right before you left Y Combinator in 2018, your father died pretty suddenly. What, I guess, impact has losing him had on you?

Sam Altman [00:20:28] That is a big question. I mean I think it totally scrambled me and my siblings and my family for longer than we realized. And I'm sure it still does now in all sorts of ways. I mean, at some point there's just nothing to do but move forward in whatever broken state you can. But the first couple of years in particular, it's like, really—it obviously really messes you up in ways you don't realize.

Sophie Bearman [00:21:00] He was pretty young?

Sam Altman [00:21:00] He was 57.

Sophie Bearman [00:21:02] Right. And it was unexpected.

Sam Altman [00:21:02] And it was a heart attack. And he was like a super healthy—I mean, he was a very athletic, very in-shape guy. And it happened while he was exercising but was totally unexpected.

Sophie Bearman [00:21:12] I'm sorry for your loss. And you did choose a song that makes you think of your dad.

Sam Altman [00:21:17] Yeah. So it's interesting. I don't know why. Because this song Recomposed by Max Richter, the "Spring 1," is not anything I think he ever would have listened to or even probably liked. I mean, I think it's—you know, I said there's some stuff on this list that would be really good music even though most of it was—this is really great music. But it's not the kind of stuff my dad ever listened to. You know, the other song that makes me think of my dad is "Like A Rolling Stone," which I think he would have said that was his favorite song. And we listened to it all the time. But this song, I did hear it pretty quickly after he died. And it was just a very comforting piece of music. And sometimes I hear a piece of music that I love so much I listen to again and again and again until I get tired of it. And then whenever that happens that piece of music gets associated with that person or that place at that time period.

Sam Altman [00:22:10] At the start it's sort of almost got the sense of like an orchestra warming up and then the melody sort of emerges out of it. And there's this sense of opening or beginning or whatever. I don't know. It's almost like a sort of regrowth kind of thing.

Sophie Bearman [00:22:32] It sounds very hopeful.

Sam Altman [00:22:34] It's a super optimistic, soaring piece.

Sophie Bearman [00:22:37] Are there shared characteristics in the music?

Sam Altman [00:22:39] I think my dad was like this super optimistic, hopeful, always saw the best in people, always saw the good—and somehow that comes through in the music to me.

Sophie Bearman [00:22:49] I'm sure there are many things you want to tell him, probably every day, if I know anything about grief. But I wonder, is there anything in particular in the last couple of years that you wish he could have been around to see?

Sam Altman [00:23:02] I mean yeah, so much. I kind of thought this would stop by now. It's been, you know, it's been a little bit more than six years. But I still once in a while, there's something that I'm like, 'oh, dad would think this was so funny,' and I pull out my phone to still call him.

Sophie Bearman [00:23:16] Some of those things just never go away.

Sam Altman [00:23:17] Maybe that one never goes away at this point.

Sophie Bearman [00:23:19] Yeah. So your last song, "Your Hand in Mine" by Explosions in the Sky, this is kind of a song about love?

Sam Altman [00:23:28] To me it is. I think most of the world knows the song from the Friday Night Lights theme song.

Sophie Bearman [00:23:34] Totally.

Sam Altman [00:23:35] Which kind of bothers me because to me it's like this very special thing and Explosions in the Sky is like a special band and it now became this thing that everyone, you know, associates with what is a great TV show for sure.

Sophie Bearman [00:23:47] It really is.

Sam Altman [00:23:48] But when Ollie and I first met, we both really loved this song. And I remember one night where we were just, you know, sitting next to each other, looking at a fire, listening to the song, and kind of looked over at each other at some point and didn't speak about it then either but felt like it had this great story of us in it.

Sophie Bearman [00:24:04] And for you is it the feeling of falling in love or being in love with Oliver?

Sam Altman [00:24:08] Yeah. Both of those.

Sophie Bearman [00:24:27] When did you guys meet and how did you guys meet?

Sam Altman [00:24:29] We met at a party in 2015.

Sophie Bearman [00:24:32] Could you say any more? Like, did you see each other across a room? I don't know.

Sam Altman [00:24:36] Yeah, pretty much. Stayed up super late talking. It's not like a detailed story. I mean, it's a great story, but there's not, like, a crazy dramatic thing to it.

Sophie Bearman [00:24:45] But like, you saw him, he saw you, and you just started dating?

Sam Altman [00:24:48] Not right away. No, no, no. We were actually both dating—okay, I guess there is a good part of the story. We both were dating other people at the time, but, you know how these things work themselves out.

Sophie Bearman [00:24:57] There was, like, an interest and then—

Sam Altman [00:24:58] Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was both at the end of, like, a failing relationship.

Sophie Bearman [00:25:02] Now you're married. Congratulations.

Sam Altman [00:25:03] Thank you.

Sophie Bearman [00:25:04] What do you guys hope for in your future together? You hoping to grow your family?

Sam Altman [00:25:09] We are. Yeah. I am more excited for that than I think I've ever been for anything.

Sophie Bearman [00:25:14] What does that look like? How many kids do you think you want?

Sam Altman [00:25:18] Start with a few and see how it goes? But maybe a lot.

Sophie Bearman [00:25:20] What's a lot?

Sam Altman [00:25:21] I mean, not like 20! But I think big families are great. You know, six or eight, maybe, would be awesome. I don't know.

Sophie Bearman [00:25:30] Wow. Because you are one of four—

Sam Altman [00:25:31] I had this huge family of people and, you know, I think it's a nice thing

Sophie Bearman [00:25:35] Are there any family traditions that you grew up with that you'd want to continue, like specifically as a dad, as you picture yourself as a dad?

Sam Altman [00:25:42] So I think traditions are really important. I'm mega-long traditions and I think as a kid I didn't quite realize how much they meant to me. Like, the big stuff like holidays, but also just the little rituals of day to day life in a family. My mom was really big that we all sat down for dinner together every night, and I loved that. Even as a kid, I knew that was like a special thing. And now I'm like it's shocking to me—I understand why, and everyone's busy, like, the kids are busy, the parents are busy—but it's shocking to me that that's not a more common experience now.

Sophie Bearman [00:26:22] Right. Okay. So my last question has to do with something I've heard, I guess a book is being written about you,  like a biography?

Sam Altman [00:26:29] I actually like the woman writing it a lot.

Sophie Bearman [00:26:31] And you're cooperating with it?

Sam Altman [00:26:33] Not really. I don't think I'll I ever be like, 'oh, it's great someone's doing this.' But yeah, it feels like, you know, we're in like the second inning of this whole thing or something.

Sophie Bearman [00:26:41] Give it another 40 years, what might that biography say? What do you hope it would say?

Sam Altman [00:26:47] I don't think that way. I don't—I mean, like, I hope that AGI is a really wonderful thing for the world. I hope I have been and continuing to be a great dad. And I hope I'm like retired on our ranch, watching the plants grow. I don't know. Something like that.

Sophie Bearman [00:27:06] Well, thank you so much for coming on.

Sam Altman [00:27:08] This was a lot of fun. Thank you for having me.

Sophie Bearman [00:27:09] This was fun.

Sophie Bearman [00:27:10] Life in Seven Songs is a production from The San Francisco Standard. This episode was produced by me, Sophie Bearman and our senior producer, Jasmyn Morris. Our executive producers are Griffin Gaffney and Jon Steinberg. This episode was mixed by Michelle Landz. Our theme music is by Kate Davis and Zubin Hensler and Clark Miller created our show art. Our music consultant is Sarah Tembeckjian, and Jessie Rogala was our on-site videographer and engineer. You can find Sam Altman's full playlist at sf.news/spotify.

Sophie Bearman [00:28:04] Also just a heads up, if you enjoyed this episode, you'll want to tune in next time when billionaire investor and "shark" Mark Cuban shares his life's "theme" and a song that actually brings him to tears. Subscribe wherever you listen so you don't miss it.