Sandra Bernhard’s ‘risky, beautiful, and heartbreaking’ life

Sandra Bernhard [00:00:02] You choose what you love and who you love and where you want to be in life. I didn't wait for something to happen to me. I did something to life that made sense for where I wanted to be and continued to do that. 

Sophie Bearman [00:00:27] You're listening to Life and seven songs from The San Francisco Standard. I'm Sophie Bearman. Joining us on the show this week is the queer icon, actress and comedian Sandra Bernhard, who's nearly five decades in showbiz, have cemented her as a fearless, tell-it-like-it-is force of nature. From Sandra's breakout performance in Martin Scorsese's "The King of Comedy" to her groundbreaking role on Roseanne playing one of the first openly gay characters on television, her legacy is a bonfire of raw talent and unapologetic truth telling. Sandra, welcome to the show. 

Sandra Bernhard [00:01:06] Thank you. 

Sophie Bearman [00:01:07] I was, of course, reading all about you in preparation. You've been called acid tongued and antagonistic by the L.A. Times and foul mouthed by The New York Times. And these were in celebration of your sort of brazen, bold style, not admonishments at all. I want to be clear, but I guess I'm curious, when you hear those quotes today, do they still feel like you? Do they ring true? 

Sandra Bernhard [00:01:28] Well, I certainly I'm very outspoken in my work. And when I'm on stage and it's between me and my audience, I'm pretty honest and forthright. And sometimes you have to cut through a lot of the artifice of life when you're performing. And that's kind of what I'm known for. So I think more and more women have gotten emboldened and are not as afraid to really express themselves as much as they were when I first started performing. So there's I think there's a lot more openness and, you know, honesty in people's performances. 

Sophie Bearman [00:02:03] Okay, So let's go to your first song that you chose, which is "Que Sera Sera" by Doris Day. So what is the story behind that pick? 

Sandra Bernhard [00:02:11] Well, it was one of the first little 45s I ever got when I was very little.  My babysitter, who was actually a patient of my father's, my dad, my dad was a doctor in Flint, Michigan, and he called her Grammy Allen. She was Irish, she was from Belfast. And she gave me this 45. And it was sort of reflective of the times we were growing up in where women, you know, kind of followed certain rules and their life was going to unfold through like meeting a man and getting married and having children and playing out, you know, the heteronormative world that we lived in in the 50s and 60s and 70s. But at the same time, I love the innocence of the song. I love the emotion of it and the simplicity of it. And Doris Day, I think in her own way, was a very complicated person because she was a really good actress. She was a great comedic actress and also an excellent singer. So this song was a big hit for her. And I have a lot of emotional attachment to this song. 

Sophie Bearman [00:03:45] You mentioned when you emailed that the lyrics never quite spoke to you lyrically, and I was really curious about that because they're really kind of like, you know, what will be will be. It kind of speaks to this idea that like, fate takes its course rather than like, you know, grabbing the bull by its horns, which feels like you really did the latter. Like you took life. Yeah. Went for it. 

Sandra Bernhard [00:04:06] When I was little, you know, you were swept along the current as opposed to swimming against it. And therefore you ended up probably in situations you didn't really want to be in because you were like, You throw your hands up. Que sera, sera, what will be, will be. And it's like, I don't have that. I don't have that theory. I believe you do. You can control your fate to a large extent because you choose what you love and who you love and where you want to be in life. And you make it happen. And that's what I did with my career and my life. And I didn't wait for something to happen to me. I did something to life that made sense for where I wanted to be and continue to do that. 

Sophie Bearman [00:04:49] You mentioned your dad was a doctor. What did your mom do and what kind of doctor was he? 

Sandra Bernhard [00:04:54] He was basically a GP. You know, he kind of did everything. He delivered babies and, you know, did house calls in the time when people might bring it to in the morning and, you know, he'd get up and go either go to the hospital or go to somebody's house. If they have a fever, you know, give them a shot of penicillin. I don't know what. I don't know what's going on. He was just at his office all the time. And my mom was an abstract artist. So she was always studying with different teachers at Flint Community College. And they were all actually, you know, kind of renowned and very successful artists in that in the early 60s, abstract, modernist. And my mom was also very talented. And again, had she been left to her own devices, she may have never gotten married and she might have pursued her art as a full time, you know, career in life. And I think she would have been very successful at it. 

Sophie Bearman [00:05:56] But she satisfied with her level of, you know, making art at home and on the side. 

Sandra Bernhard [00:06:01] I think she was. And I think my mom didn't have a burning desire for fame or that kind of success, and nobody was pushing her. So she just did her own thing. 

Sophie Bearman [00:06:12] I think I. You said burning desire for fame. And I read somewhere that at a pretty young age, you kind of knew you wanted to be an entertainer. Is that is that true? And how old were you? 

Sandra Bernhard [00:06:23] Yeah. I you know, definitely I articulated it by the time I was five. But I always performed and sang and did my little, you know, shows for my family from the time I could, you know, remember talking and singing. So I kind of came into the world feeling that connection to that. 

Sophie Bearman [00:06:45] What kind of show would you put on, like paint a scene for me? Five, six, seven years old. 

Sandra Bernhard [00:06:51] I might grab my father's shoehorn, which was I had a long stem and and sing Bill Bailey, that song. Once you come home, Bill Bailey, why don't you come home? 

Sophie Bearman [00:07:03] Love it. 

Sandra Bernhard [00:07:04] Whatever the sort of the the fun song of the time I would do my little my little soft shoe and and performance. I guess now I would have put I'd put it on Tik tok. But you know back then I would just do it for my family, which I think ultimately is much healthier and much more, you know, about creative sort of evolution. 

Sophie Bearman [00:07:25] You have a memory of being with your brother and hearing a song come up on the radio. What was that? 

Sandra Bernhard [00:07:34] I believe it was "Stop in the Name of Love." It was one of the Supremes first song, and that's when they were called The Supremes, not Diana Ross and the Supremes. And Motown was, you know, really sort of setting the pace for R&B music in general. So when we were hanging out in my brother's room and it was snowing outside and we're listening to his AM radio and that song came on. And hearing it for the first time when I was probably like six or seven it was, you know, it was incredible. 

Sandra Bernhard [00:08:24] That music has such resonance and longevity. And Diana Ross's voice and the blending and the harmonies of the other women was so distinct and beautiful and light and bouncy and optimistic and also just like to sort of be let in on the black experience. And, you know, it was all happening in Detroit, just, you know, 50 miles away from where we were. And that was that incredible experience and those memories and just the whole deep respect for black entertainment and music and culture has played a huge influence on my work over the years. 

Sophie Bearman [00:09:05] So, yeah, You grew up in Flint, Michigan. What was that like? 

Sandra Bernhard [00:09:08] You know, it was a very insular town. It was a factory town. GM And and Buick and Body by Fisher. So a lot of factory workers, a lot of working class people. And then, you know, a small but very sort of tight knit Jewish community. And so it was Americana, but in a way sort of, you know, just I don't know. I mean, I can't imagine being in a town like that again. I don't think it exists. It was cool. It was fun. It was fun to be in a place where you knew a lot of people. You knew your neighbors, you knew your friend's parents, you knew their kids, and you know you know them at school and you know them from going to synagogue and temple. And there was a lot of, you know, cross-pollination amongst your friends, my brothers, friends. Everybody knew each other. 

Sophie Bearman [00:10:07] So you chose for your third song "Like a Rolling Stone" by Bob Dylan. 

Sandra Bernhard [00:10:11] That was more of a personal story because my oldest brother Dan left home when he was 18 and he was really like immersed in Bob Dylan and the folk music scene. And he was also very influenced by Jack Kerouac,  "On the Road." And he was sort of a rebel and he wanted to be a writer. So when he left home, my dad sort of threw him out of the house. He wasn't going to do anything that was constructive, according to my father. So he left home and "Like a Rolling Stone" because he was so into Bob Dylan was he'd sit in the basement and smoke Marlboros and and listen to Dylan hours on end on the hi fi. That seemed like the perfect song for him leaving home and for us to actually also be leaving home and moving away from Michigan. So like a Rolling Stone kind of encompasses that whole idea of leaving behind whatever is comfortable and throwing yourself into an unknown situation. And my brother was trying to be freewheeling. I guess my father was too, in his own way. So the song just sort of makes sense for everybody. 

Sandra Bernhard [00:11:45] We suddenly moved from Michigan to Arizona when I was ten years old. I mean, that wasn't my choice. But once we got to Arizona, I kind of loved it. And it was a great sort of unfolding of new experiences that I never would have had staying in Michigan my whole life. So in that way, even though I maybe I would have said if it had been up to me, I want to stay in Michigan. I was excited to drive across the country and see the country in a way that that probably not that many kids got to in the mid-60s and then end up in the desert. It was kind of fun and whimsical. And I learned a lot from being out there. 

Sophie Bearman [00:12:23] Why did your dad decided it was time to move there? Was it a job or? 

Sandra Bernhard [00:12:27] I can't tell you exactly what happened. I don't know if anybody can, but he decided he wanted to leave Michigan, so it might have been something personal that was kept hidden from the kids. Who knows? And so, again, some of the time, like, we're just going to move and I'm okay with that stuff. So we just all packed up and left. We weren't going to stay in Michigan by ourselves. Yeah, we got in the Pontiac Station wagon and off we went and our furniture came a little bit later. 

Sophie Bearman [00:12:59] Right. That's a long drive. Did you entertain your family in that car drive? Do you remember any of it, or is it just a blur? 

Sandra Bernhard [00:13:07] I remember driving through New Mexico, which is so beautiful. There were so many like red rocks and just these incredible mountains. And my mom was like just gobsmacked by it. And she said, she had her Midwestern accent and she said, my God, look at all of these shapes and forms. And that also became the name of her art studio in Arizona. Shapes and Forms. 

Sophie Bearman [00:13:32] That's beautiful. Yeah, I like that. 

Sandra Bernhard [00:13:33] I do, too. 

Sophie Bearman [00:13:34] So you're kind of like in your pre-teens now growing up there. So what was that like? 

Sandra Bernhard [00:13:39] Yeah, At first, I. I went horseback riding. I learned how to ride Western saddle, you know, went to school, made some new friends. You know, there was a fair amount of divorce in Arizona. So a lot of my friends came from, you know, I think, fractured relationships with their parents. And so in that way, it was very exotic because in Michigan, everybody was together and had been together and everybody knew each other. And Arizona, everybody was estranged from their families in many ways, estranged from, you know, their neighbors. So I made some good friends there. But it was always a little something mysterious, was always kind of behind the scenes in Arizona. 

Sophie Bearman [00:14:30] So then what were you like daydreaming of in high school in Arizona? If you were kind of feeling of a sense that, like, it wasn't quite your place? What were you thinking about? 

Sandra Bernhard [00:14:40] I was planning my my escape, for sure. You know, I was like definitely going to go and pursue my career. I didn't have any idea how I was going to do it, but I knew I would do it. 

Sophie Bearman [00:14:56] It's time for a quick break. When we come back, Sandra sets her sights on Hollywood. Stay with us. 

Sophie Bearman [00:15:24] So, Sandra, you're a teenager in Arizona with dreams of heading elsewhere and you start to really hone your musical creative self. How are you doing that? 

Sandra Bernhard [00:15:34] I sang in the chorus, but they didn't let me in. The best chorus at our high school. The ones who put on the musicals, which was really it turned out to be a blessing because the head of that department was molesting a lot of the girls. I know, it's really fucked up. So because I didn't fit in, you know? Of course. Who do they like? They like the blond, waspy looking girls. So I was also very skinny and I looked very, very young. And so I wouldn't have been interesting to some lecherous creep. That's always been like, that's what I'm saying, it's always been like a blessing for me. It's like I'm so glad I don't look like the girl next door, because my life probably would have been destroyed by it. 

Sophie Bearman [00:16:17] So you were listening to Joni Mitchell in your teens? Yeah. What did she mean to you? 

Sandra Bernhard [00:16:22] Well, Joni was just, like, enigmatic and beautiful and so creative. And again, in control of the of her narrative as a songwriter, as a woman who, you know, kind of went in and out of relationships, a lot of them the most that didn't last and can manage to like we've, you know, the aftermath and the potential heartbreak of of those situations into these incredible songs. I mean she's up there with like, for sure, the top ten songwriters of all time.

Sophie Bearman [00:16:59] And you chose a song, "People's Parties," which I love that song. It's it's like a spoken poem as well. Yeah. Why did you choose that? 

Sandra Bernhard [00:17:08] It was aspirational. You know, you knew it was about Hollywood. You knew it was about famous people that she had encountered. And it was just, like, visceral and amazing, you know?  

Sandra Bernhard [00:17:36] It was like where I was heading, you know, when I listened to to Joni Mitchell, it was like I knew what was waiting on the other, you know, end of the of the journey to finish high school and collect my thoughts and my life. And, you know, as it turned out, moved to L.A.. 

Sophie Bearman [00:17:57] So that moved to L.A. You know, a lot of people say, like, I packed up my bags and moved. But I'm really curious, like, what did that look like? What did you say to your parents? Like, what do you pack? How did you get there? 

Sandra Bernhard [00:18:07] My dad took me over. I decided I was to become a manicurist in Beverly Hills because my cousins were doing that. So I knew that I was going to arrive in L.A. and immediately go to beauty school. Charles Ross School of Beauty and takes a three months manicuring course. And I was living with my aunt and uncle in Westwood. My uncle was a professor of music at UCLA. And so I spent the summer, you know, learning how to give manicures and pedicures. By the end of the summer, I had my own apartment in West Hollywood. And, you know, most of my friends were hairdressers and people in that world. And also I really became enmeshed in the whole gay scene, the gay men going out to Studio one, which was the big club there and dancing and entertaining. 

Sophie Bearman [00:18:56] And you're listening to Sylvester's "You Make Me Feel Mighty Real" at Studio One. Paint the scene there. 

Sandra Bernhard [00:19:03] The scene there was like manly, just like a lot of leather daddies, a lot of, like, super butch gay men and maybe a couple of, me and a couple other women. I mean, there were hardly any women at that time in these gay clubs and Sylvester, who also was a huge influence on me during that time in terms of like really expressing total freedom and total audacity and really driving the disco beat. In a way that nobody else ever did. I mean, he really like, he was just like, totally, like, open and loving and groovy and just like. And like an angel. Like, he just, like, was happy with his life, happy in his and his being. And the music just reflected that. 

Sandra Bernhard [00:20:11] So when you go out and you dance, it was just like you were like just levitated off the ground a few inches at the time. And that's what the whole gay scene was like at that time. It was a little bit behind this. It was definitely behind the scenes. It was private, it was insular and very much setting the trend for what most people wanted in their lives, which was a chance to go out and just really be something that they would never be anywhere else than on the dance floor. 

Sophie Bearman [00:20:47] Your next song is "Lose Again" from "Hasten Down the Wind." How come? 

Sandra Bernhard [00:20:52] Well, I mean, Linda Ronstadt vocally for me has she's like the loud clarion call of pop music. And there's just not a it's like her throat was just completely open. There was nothing confining it. And it also was so California, you know, she captured the California spirit of when I first moved there. Going down to the beach now was like the dream to, like, drive down Santa Monica Boulevard all the way to the beach and just park at the beach and just get out and like, throw your towel down and splash around in the water. Talk to people on blankets next to you and then meet up with your friends at the end of the day at Lucy's El Adobe for delicious Mexican food and have a margarita and then go back to your apartment and play Linda Ronstadt I mean, you know, you might even see Linda Ronstadt at Lucy's because that's where she went and she was so beautiful and so like, just natural, you know? And there was nothing contrived about her and her voice. I, like I said, just like, uh. You can feel it like sinking into your soul. And I don't think there's any voice better than hers. 

Sandra Bernhard [00:22:28] And now it's just so tragiv. And she can't sing anymore. And. And it it's just like. I don't know, it's haunting, but when I just want to, like, really go to that place of emotion, I'll put  on those those early albums of Linda Ronstadt. 

Sophie Bearman [00:22:46] So when did you start transitioning out of working at the nail salon and start doing films and comedy and, you know, the the TV appearances full time? 

Sandra Bernhard [00:22:54] I don't know. I mean, I feel like by 78, 79, I didn't have to work as a manicurist anymore. There was a woman who I think I met her at beauty school and remembers Judy Valentine, and she's the one who said, You're really funny. You should. We're going to take you to the open mic night at the Ye Little Club in Beverly Hills. So that was that was less than a year later after I'd gone to L.A., I'd say early spring, 1975. And I went and put together my five minutes of material and got up an open mic night. And that was the night that I met Paul Mooney in Lotus One stop. 

Sophie Bearman [00:23:30] Incredible. 

Sandra Bernhard [00:23:31] And that's what that was my jumping off place to start performing and doing small parts in films and doing the Richard Pryor TV show, which was so ahead of its time and short lived because Richard Pryor couldn't handle the the networks and dealing with all the constraints that they tried to put on him. So, yeah. Now, from that point on, I always made a living as a as a performer, actress, writer, entertainer. And that was that's a that's a big deal like. To not have formal training as an actor or I don't know, it's just like I would just I went with my dreams. I went with my, you know, instinctive inner voice and jumped in and just did what I did naturally. And it caught on. 

Sophie Bearman [00:24:28] Yeah. You land this amazing role in Martin Scorsese's film, "The King of Comedy," which is a satirical black comedy about an unhinged superfan, which is your character who's obsessed with the famous comedian played by Jerry Lewis. And it's a really incredible performance from you. That must have been a big break for you, right? I mean, that was kind of your first big film. Your first film. 

Sandra Bernhard [00:24:51] For sure. It wasn't my first film, but it was the first film anybody would have seen. And certainly it was a breakout role and would have been for any actress who got it. It was just that, there's just not that many roles where you really get to do that. 

Sophie Bearman [00:25:07] Well, just describe like, what did you do with that role for someone who maybe hasn't seen it? 

Sandra Bernhard [00:25:10] I took my improvizational skills and put them to use, and I also took my exasperation at, you know, at the world and channeled it all into Marsha who was the character.

Sophie Bearman [00:25:26] What was that exasperation with the world coming from, or what were you feeling at that time? 

Sandra Bernhard [00:25:31] Well, I think it's the same exasperation I feel now. The world is you know, it's misogynist, it's racist, it's homophobic. It's square. It's, you know, boring. It's driven by money. I mean, we all want to have some security and everybody should have security. But I'm talking about the people that are just driven, driven, driven to make so much money that they can run a small nation. I find that very unappealing. 

Sophie Bearman [00:26:02] So you went on to produce a number of one woman shows. You're still doing one woman shows. But I'm thinking specifically of "I'm still here, dammit." What's that one about? 

Sandra Bernhard [00:26:11] Well, it was sort of I'm back and better than ever. And I've been, you know, kicked, kicked around, and people have tried to hold me down. But here I am again. It's like this, you know, fake famous woman who's been through hell and is so not what I've been through. So not how I feel. But it was sort of just like a persona.

Sophie Bearman [00:26:34] You were pregnant at the time, although you've you've said many times that it was important to you not to, like, advertise that or sort of. How come? 

Sandra Bernhard [00:26:44] Well, I just thought it was funny just to be pregnant. Everybody's pregnant who's pregnant, and everybody has basically the same experience. And just because this is what I do for my living, you know, I'm in front of people doesn't make my journey as, you know, a mother to be any more important or, you know, sort of special. It almost makes it less because, you know, I'm being taken care of. I'm doing what I want to do. And most women have to, like, take care of their husbands or the rest of their kids. And I didn't have anybody else just on my own, just me and my baby. And that was really fun and crazy. Something I never really I never really thought I'd have a kid. And and so when I did it, it was sort of like, I'm just gonna like, ride it out and be on stage and never talk about it and just do what I would be normally doing as as a performer, as an artist. And it made it really fun and crazy and special. 

Sophie Bearman [00:27:43] And you're listening to Stevie Nicks, "Edge of 17" when you're doing that show. How come? 

Sandra Bernhard [00:27:49] Well, I mean, when I was pregnant, I was real. I mean, Fleetwood Mac was really back in a big way. And it was the full band. And I went to see them on Thanksgiving Day when I was pregnant. And then I actually got to interview Stevie Nicks, I think it was her 50th birthday. I went to see her do her solo performance and then interview her for MTV, and I was like seven, at least seven months pregnant. But it was really, really fun to talk to her. And I think she was sort of like trepidatious about, you know, crossing the Rubicon into 50, as we all feel now. We'd be happy to be back at 50. I'm sure Stevie would be like, okay, I'll be 50 again. 

Sandra Bernhard [00:29:00] Every night before I leave to go do my show, "I'm still here, dammit" I would play Fleetwood Mac's live album and just get in the headspace that it was sort of informing everything that I wanted to be and do at that time. The freedom and the kind of Americana of rock and roll and the interplay between all the musicians and the affairs and the heartbreak and the drugs. It'll never be that again. It'll never, it'll never, ever be that again. 

Sophie Bearman [00:29:31] It seems like you want your legacy and all these seven songs to speak to people who, like, don't care as much about what people say about them and just do them like are who they are and live their life to the fullest. 

Sandra Bernhard [00:29:45] Yeah, absolutely. 

Sophie Bearman [00:29:46] Yeah. 

Sandra Bernhard [00:29:47] People who gave and loved what they did and and really honed their craft. And that's why I love what I do. And there are certain performers, and I think I chose all of them carefully today. People who really not only were just instinctively good at singing and writing, but also allowed themselves to fully be and immerse themselves in life in a way that was risky and beautiful and at times heartbreaking. 

Sophie Bearman [00:30:22] And you think do you feel like you're still doing that today? 

Sandra Bernhard [00:30:26] For sure. Paul Mooney, my mentor, said you have to shed your skin. You have to peel away a layer like you're an onion. And no matter how long and how often I perform, there's always like moments I go, "Wow, I've never gotten to that place before." That's a gift. And that's something that has great meaning not only to me, but to the audience. And you can be unabashed about that and it's not egotistical. It's just somebody's willingness to fully embrace who they are along each measured mile of their life. 

Sophie Bearman [00:31:01] Sandra, thanks so much for being on the show. 

Sandra Bernhard [00:31:03] I really appreciate it. Thank you. 

Sophie Bearman [00:31:31] Life in Seven songs is a production from the San Francisco Standard. This episode was produced by me, Sophie Bearman and our senior producer, Jasmyn Morris. Our executive producers are Griffin Gaffney and Jon Steinberg. This episode was mixed by Michelle Lanz. Our theme music is by Kate Davis and Zubin Hensler, and Clark Miller created our show Art. Our music consultant is Sarah Tembeckjian. You can find Sandra Bernhard's full playlist at sf.news/spotify. Thanks for listening and see you next time.