Why Kara Swisher loves country music and the military

Kara Swisher [00:00:01] I'm a softy when it comes to songs. Absolutely. Not when it comes to Elon Fuckin Musk, Rocket Man. Go for it. Get to Mars. Leave us the fuck alone. 

Sophie Bearman [00:00:24] You're listening to Life in seven songs from The San Francisco Standard. I'm Sophie Bearman. My guest this week is the longtime journalist and media entrepreneur Kara Swisher, who's been covering Silicon Valley and the Internet since the days of dial up and whose fearless, no nonsense style has made her a force to be reckoned with in the tech world. Over the past three decades, from Kara's early days at the Washington Post and The Wall Street Journal, to her years creating groundbreaking tech news sites, conferences and hit podcasts to writing opinions for The New York Times. Kara has made a name for herself, interviewing nearly all the titans of technology: Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, Mark Zuckerberg, and, yes, Elon Musk as well. Kara Swisher, Welcome. 

Kara Swisher [00:01:15] Thank you. Thank you so much. 

Sophie Bearman [00:01:16] So I want to dive in right away with one of your songs, Taylor Swift's "The Last Great American Dynasty." I had a big laugh when you texted that pick, and I read it in a very deadpan voice. You said, I also had a marvelous time ruining everything. Just explain. 

Kara Swisher [00:01:33] Well, that's the big line of the, you know, the reveal in the song is that she bought the house this troublemaker was in. But it's this sort of rich, you know, I think 20s person or maybe earlier who had become wealthy and sort of spurned society and bought this giant mansion. And then Taylor Swift ends up owning it. She had a marvelous time ruining everything. And I and Taylor Swift says that about herself. And I feel it's a great way of saying I like being a troublemaker in a good way. 

Kara Swisher [00:02:24] I like history songs, by the way. I like stories. And she's a great storyteller, obviously, and the songs I like a lot of her songs, but the ones I like best are her story songs. It's just great, you know, because this idea of these dynasties in history is great to me, and that's what tech is now. We'll be singing of it, you know, just like the robber barons. And so she reminds us that it's sort of done and done and yet is here again kind of thing. And I like that idea of using past history to sort of inform us on the future in the present, essentially. 

Sophie Bearman [00:02:57] She's also a pretty phenomenal businesswoman who doesn't suffer fools, you know. So I'm sure you like that, too. 

Kara Swisher [00:03:01] And I love that about her.

Kara Swisher [00:03:04] Yeah, she's an entrepreneur. One of my great wishes, and I've said this to her PR person a number of times to Tree Paine, her PR, she's more than PR, She's an astonishing executive for Taylor Swift. I'd like to do an interview with her and Dolly Parton together, but not talk about creativity or music. I want to talk about their business acumen. Both of them are really phenomenal entrepreneurs. Dolly Parton owns so much IP, it's crazy. And she's doing all kinds of interesting. And at the back when she was doing innovative things. And Taylor Swift is certainly a really world class entrepreneur in terms of how she puts together her shows and owns her stuff. And she's one of the most undersung entrepreneurs going right now. And of course, you know, her success is quite obvious. 

Sophie Bearman [00:03:46] I would listen to that. Well, let's hope that comes through. 

Kara Swisher [00:03:49] Yeah, I wish that'll be. And then I'm quitting. 

Sophie Bearman [00:03:52] That'll be the pinnacle, right? 

Kara Swisher [00:03:54] I well, I don't want to talk about that. Her boyfriends or or Dolly's sweet Tennessee home. That's fine. I don't. I'm not interested. You two, I want to talk about you killer business people that you are so. 

Sophie Bearman [00:04:04] Absolutely. So, Cara, you are known for being super direct, not mincing words. And I've heard you say that you've basically been that way for as long as you remember. What's an example of that? From childhood? 

Kara Swisher [00:04:15] I read very early. They thought I was a not a genius, but I was very advanced in my reading and math and everything else. When I was younger, everyone caught up with me eventually. So I didn't I didn't stay a genius, unfortunately. But I was a very early reader and speaker, and so I was in I think it was I think this must be second grade. I forget. And I walked out. My mom had to come to the school and they said, Why did you walk out of class? And I said, I already knew that they were boring, they were boring me. And so I would always say what I thought, even if it had a cost, I just felt it was easier. It's easier to tell the truth because you don't forget it. 

Sophie Bearman [00:04:50] So you chose "Que Sera Sera" by Doris Day as one of your songs. What memory does it bring up for you? 

Kara Swisher [00:04:56] This associate with my grandmother, I spent a lot of time. My dad died when I was young, and my grandmother was critical to my upbringing, and she used to love this song and used to sing it. And she was Italian and her parents were immigrants. And my grandfather actually was born in Italy. And I just, she used to love to sing this song and she used to sing it to me all the time. And then we dance in her kitchen and she was a housewife. She wasn't, you know, she never really moved more than, you know, within 20 miles of our home our whole life. And she just loved this song. It just is very emotional for me to listen to it because it reminds me of her. 

Kara Swisher [00:05:56] Yeah, I know. It makes you. It makes you dance, right? 

Sophie Bearman [00:05:59] You just kind of want to sway.

Kara Swisher [00:06:00] It's good. It's a really great song. It's. I love the little thing at the beginning. I'm not a music person, but that. That little Italian. You feel like you're an Italian restaurant or something. But I think she liked it whenever I was worried because when my dad died, I was worried. And she she always said, Que sera sera. What's going to be good will be. And I think it was a really good thing for a kid to learn, right? Like, don't worry about it. And so I love this song. Makes Me cry. One of the memories I have, my grandmother is dancing and she was sort of a round a little Italian lady, but she was as light as as her meatballs were, by the way, you should amazing meatballs when she dances. And she would dance in the kitchen at night by herself. And I just thought that was a lovely, she wasn't light on her feet, but she was when she sang this. When she sang the song. 

Sophie Bearman [00:06:44] You said it almost makes you want to cry. I'm just curious where it does make emotion. Does where are those emotions coming from? 

Kara Swisher [00:06:51] I loved her. She was amazing. She really helped me in a very difficult, not just a difficult time. She's very loving person and I had more difficulties with my mom. And so she was you know, when a parent dies, it's really hard. And I was five and so just was I had I spent a lot of summers with her and she was just great. And she was an amazing cook, too. Not fancy, but delicious. Everything she made was delicious. 

Sophie Bearman [00:07:16] So you mentioned that your dad died when you were five years old. Can you tell me a little bit about him? 

Kara Swisher [00:07:22] Well, I write about him a lot in my book. You know, one of the things that people are surprised by because they thought was me sort of a textbook, but it's a memoir, obviously. He was amazing. Very kind. Good. He was a doctor. He died at 34. Can you imagine having three kids and starting your life? He had just gotten out of the Navy, which paid for his medical school and his college, he did not have money. And he had just literally started, gotten a great job and died. Just died. Bought his first house. I think of that a lot. And I think it's one of the reasons I'm I'm not very patient with assholes. I'm like, I don't have time for you. Like, let's just get going because life is short. And yeah, I'm a very life is short person. More than that, it's like, you'll be dead in 50 years if you're lucky. You're kind of thing or whatever your age. Not you. You're saying? No, but I hope not. But you know what I mean. I have a I have a very good sense of mortality and I think that's healthy. 

Sophie Bearman [00:08:12] I know five is really young. Do you have any memories of him? 

Kara Swisher [00:08:15] A lot, but not in great detail. Right. I mean, one of the things that's amazing and I think a lot about with computers. Wouldn't it  great to have to be able to download your memories? There's a lot of fictional books like that, but we're not like computers, of course, where you can recover things. But no, not great memories. And sometimes I think about being hypnotized to remember, but little bits and pieces.

Sophie Bearman [00:08:38] One thing that you knew about him, you know, was that he had been in the military. And that's something that you sort of wanted to model yourself after for a while. 

Kara Swisher [00:08:47] Yes, I did. I would still am regretful. I don't have many regrets. That's one of them. I wish I had served in the military. I really thought it was important. And I think it's always surprises people and some quite liberals. But at the same time, I think it's really important to serve your country. And I think everyone at every level of society should be part of a national service. I just it brings us together as a group of people. I mean, basically right now, all we have left is the Super Bowl, I guess. And even now we're fighting about that like, I don't like Travis Kelce because he's dating Taylor Swift, whatever. It's it's ridiculous that we don't have more analog community things to be to have of commonality. And you you saw that for many years. I just feel like I would have been a good leader. I think it would have opened people up. And so I wanted to, but I couldn't because I was gay at the time. It was not allowed. Gays were not allowed in them. Well, they were there, but they were hiding. And I'm not a hider, so. 

Sophie Bearman [00:09:40] Well, you chose another song for your early years from the 1972 Broadway musical Pippin, which is about a young prince on his search for meaning and significance. I read that online. I haven't actually seen Pippin. 

Kara Swisher [00:09:52] It is great. They just revived it. They okay. I love musical theater. This isn't the greatest show I've seen in them, but I've seen so many wonderful. My mom used to take me to Broadway a lot and off-Broadway, and so I loved it. I went and saw this show in the original. I just loved being in the theater. I loved the theater so much. It has so many good memories for me. 

Sophie Bearman [00:10:13] You chose a song called Corner of the Sky. What's it about? 

Kara Swisher [00:10:17] It's about, you know, this is about Pippin, who's the son of Charlemagne. And there's a lot of very funny songs. I like all the songs in the in the show, actually. I know them by heart. So these two listen to the album over and over. I love this song because I have a distinct memory of listening, a song and looking out a window. We used to do things like that back before cell phones and look at your screen. Screen was the window. And, you know, I knew I was gay and I wasn't upset by it. But it was upsetting because you had to hide back then? Very much so. 

Sophie Bearman [00:10:45] How old were you when you knew that? 

Kara Swisher [00:10:47] Whenever Pippin came out? 72. 72. So I was ten years old, but I just was like, how can you find where you're going? And I. I love that song for that. I mean, I remember thinking, What the fuck am I going to do? I'm gay. Like, how am I going to go to find where I'm going? It sounds so dumb to think gay things weigh on you, but it really did. Back then. It was just such. Every time I think about it, it makes me sick to the amount of hiding and furtive ness that happens and shame. I wasn't ashamed to say, but people tried to make you feel ashamed, that's for sure. Including my mom. 

Sophie Bearman [00:11:24] Well, there's this great line in the song, cause, you know, got to find my corner of the sky. So I'm going to play a little bit of it.

Kara Swisher [00:11:56] It's kind of corny, but there's a line. So many men seemed destined to settle for something small. I think that's the line. And I won't rest until I know I have it all. I just was like. I could sit on the window. I could. And I did fit. Actually, I was very good. I had boyfriends. I did very well at school. I fit in. But I hated that I fit in right like I was. Some people who are gay are different. They can't hide. Right? I was really good at hiding. Like I had my boyfriend was literally the football star. It was terrible. Wow. Years later, they. A bunch of people date. Guys I dated came up to. Like you are the best girlfriend we've ever had. And I said that's because I was utterly uninterested in you. And I didn't care if you liked me or not. I didn't say, Do you like me? They're like, Yeah, that was great. I was like, You should date more lesbians who could give a fuck? And I knew I was gay and I fit in so well to the prevailing straight girl, you know, do well at school world. And so I thought, I love that song for this because I just didn't like that. I wanted to be the expression of myself, which I thought was important. 

Sophie Bearman [00:13:02] Well, yeah, for someone who is so much herself. Right. It's unusual to hear that you held this duality first. 

Kara Swisher [00:13:08] Well, you had to. I can't tell you. My sons are always like, why didn't you just say so? I was like, You couldn't say. So there was so much of a price. And when I did come out, there was a price. 

Sophie Bearman [00:13:17] And was that in college when you came out? 

Kara Swisher [00:13:19] In my 20s, actually, in my early 20s. But, you know, what was interesting is you think you're going to pay more of a price. And my brothers were great when I told, when I had to come and come out in rather loud way. But my mom was terrible and and continued to be for many years. But my grandmother was amazing. She was like, I don't care. Like, she didn't care. She was like, I love you. And so I was shocked by that because she was old school, right? Catholic, very religious, went to mass every day. And she just didn't care. 

Sophie Bearman [00:13:51] Pivoting a little bit, in your memoir, you tell a story of how you landed your first paid gig in journalism at the Washington Post while you were still in college. And I just I loved reading that. So I'm wondering if you could share it. 

Kara Swisher [00:14:03] Yeah. So I was working for The Hoya at Georgetown University. I had started working for the newspaper there, and I got very into what was happening in El Salvador. A lot of the murders of people there. I wanted very much to be a foreign correspondent at that time. That changed over time. But I had written this terrible killer. It'd been very controversial, arrived on campus, and so I wrote a story about it. And then I saw The Washington Post and I read The Washington Post every day. I went because I was I loved it. I revered it. And it was full of errors. And I was furious. And so I called them and I managed to get the metro editor on the line. His name is Larry Kramer. And I just reamed him out. Like I was like, How dare you do a bad job? You're The Washington Post. This is wrong. This is wrong. It's wrong. And I of course, they sent the worst person that they didn't send their top, you know, reporters to cover a campus speech, essentially. But I thought they should like they're going to do it. And so I yelled at him and he's like, why don't you come down there and say this to my face? I said, I'll do that. And I went down and sai it to his face and he hired me because I was so irritating and and know they hired me because I think I had it. Like I really cared for readers to get the right information. And so so I did that. And I got my first job, my first paying job, and then I ended up being an intern there, etc., And it sort of launched me. The Washington Post really launched me. But that call made a big difference in my life, But I was genuinely pissed. I was pissed. We used to make phone calls before, not text. Right. 

Sophie Bearman [00:15:31] The days when I would actually pick up a phone and get the editor.

Kara Swisher [00:15:34] Shock, I think he was generally shocked. Someone took the minute to like, hand it to them. 

Sophie Bearman [00:15:42] It's time for a quick break. When we're back, carrot reveals a musical obsession that might just surprise you. 

Sophie Bearman [00:16:18] Next song. I'm not actually quite sure where it fits in in your timeline, but you chose "Landslide." 

Kara Swisher [00:16:24] "Landslide"? Yeah. 

Sophie Bearman [00:16:25] Fleetwood Mac. 

Kara Swisher [00:16:26] Yeah. I love this song. Everybody loves this song. I just. You know, it reminds me of every bad relationship. They've not been all bad. One or two. Every relationship I have a song with. If I think about different people. Stevie Nicks is amazing. And I just listened to that album over and I think the whole album's all the Fleetwood Mac albums are critical to my, you know, high school career. 

Sophie Bearman [00:16:50] And to me, it's really about, you know, growing and change. And I guess I'm curious, you said in your text, you know, it relates to every era of your life, but what era of your life did you feel like that growth, that change. 

Kara Swisher [00:17:02] High school. Sitting on a couch of a friend's house and being sad. Again, it was about being gay. I liked someone very much, but I couldn't say. Right. I just it's about it's. It's about relationships. And this reminds me, this is of the many songs I listen to about relationships. This was the one like just your starting on adult relationships. When you're in your high school years, you're starting to think about what an adult relationship is. You know, even my sons love this song now. You know, there's songs that just stick with you. Just stick with you.

Kara Swisher [00:17:59] Such a good song. I know every word of it. I'm not going to sing it because why would you sing over Stevie Nicks? Like, come on, She's just deserves to sing the whole thing. First of all, her voice. I just love her voice. Like, that's, you know, I'm very attracted to voices. I like people certain certain people's voices. And hers is just fantastic here. And, you know, it's her singing it. And one of the great things about the song is it makes you think about your life, right? It makes you can't avoid thinking about your life. You know, It's also a beautiful song, the guitar and everything else. It's just it's just pretty. It's just pretty. Sometimes things are just pretty and sad in a good way. Not in a in a weepy way, but it's sad in a profound way, I think. 

Sophie Bearman [00:18:39] So you said this song leads to adulthood. Let's talk about technology. I want to talk a little bit about your interest and like fascination with tech, essentially where it came from. I know in your memoir you mentioned, for example, like when you started covering this, Bezos had six employees. You know, most people were interested in this stuff. So just paint a picture for me of like, how did you know? Why were you interested? 

Kara Swisher [00:19:04] It's interesting because I was very attuned to propaganda and I understood it was this shift. If you understood communications shifts, whether it was the Gutenberg press was critical to radio, to television, telegraph, to radio writing, papyrus like stuff like that. Like think about the Alexandria Library was destroyed like it was, but it was the font of knowledge of the day. And so I'm always paying attention to communications tools. And when I saw the Internet and I was a very young person at the Washington Post, I was like, this is going to change everything. And so I just saw it. I just saw that everything would be digitized. Why wouldn't it? 

Sophie Bearman [00:19:46] You pulled the plug on your home phone before a lot of people. And there's this great scene in your memoir of you like stubbornly trying to make mobile phones work. Maybe they weren't quite there. 

Kara Swisher [00:19:56] Literally, I just got the new iPhone. There's still a pain in the ass to shift over. I was like, I wrote someone at pretty high up at Apple. I'm like, transition still suck friends. Like, what the fuck I like and I'm really good at it. In any case, I just. I just feel like it's really important to pay attention to these things because they have implications that are bigger, right? In terms of, of where, of our society. And when I saw these people, I had an offer to cover the White House. That was the top of reporters right? The White House. The president And I thought, these people are going to be more important than the president, like you could see it. 

Sophie Bearman [00:20:33] You could see it.

Kara Swisher [00:20:33] Yes. But I think anybody, if they really were paying attention to history, you know, if you have just a glancing knowledge of history or spent time, the problem is many people in especially in United States, just don't pay attention to history. I do. I really do. 

Sophie Bearman [00:20:49] Well, I mean, but Kara, you tried to warn, like at The Wall Street Journal, you know, you tried to warn them about the advent of digital and in a way of like helping. And what it sounds like is they didn't listen. 

Kara Swisher [00:20:59] Well, they don't want to change. If you're doing something the way you're doing it, you can't imagine it doing anything different. Right? Like, this is working. We're making money. They were making a lot of money. And, you know, I wrote a big column in The New York Times a couple years ago where I said humans driving cars will be like owning a horse. Like why. Maybe for fun, kind of stuff, but we will be autonomous by a certain point. And my God, people went crazy, it's never going to happen. I'm like, No, it's going to happen. It's just it's a it's just a question of when. 

Sophie Bearman [00:21:30] So one of the songs you chose is a Carrie Underwood song, "Jesus Take the Wheel," how come?

Kara Swisher [00:21:37] I love country music like nobody's fucking business. I really do. Trisha Yearwood, Garth Brooks, all of them. And especially pop country music. I like. I love indie country music too, and I love indie folk music. Anyway, I just love country music. And my favorite one is "Jesus, Take the Wheel." I'm not particularly religious, My family members who are. But I always think that like whenever things go wrong, I have a very good attitude about how life goes on without you and beyond you and everything else. And so I'm not religious, but I do believe, like, you know, we're just here for this short time. And it's like whenever something goes wrong, I'm a very good person to have in a in a crisis because I'm like, Jesus, take the wheel, like.

Sophie Bearman [00:22:19] It's kind of like, "Que Sera Sera."

Kara Swisher [00:22:21] Yeah, right. It is like. Jesus take the wheel. So whenever, whenever there's like with my kids and they're like, losing their minds, I'm like, Jesus, take the wheel, Mom, stop it. I'm like, No, just relax, will you?

Kara Swisher [00:22:32] We have to put our hands in the air. I always do this. Jesus take the wheel!

Sophie Bearman [00:23:01] There we go. 

Kara Swisher [00:23:02] I do sing to this.

Sophie Bearman [00:23:03] They must be mortified, your kids.

Kara Swisher [00:23:05] They are mortified because I do it when I'm driving. Like sometimes when I was in San Francisco, we lived in San Francisco for my older kids and there's these hills I used to take them up. There's one, Hill street, actually near the Castro, and we go up it and I have a stick shift. I have. I'm one of those people. And I would go up the hill and I'm an excellent stick shift diver. And if I if you're a if you can drive a stick shift in San Francisco, you're a good driver. And so I was going up the hill and it's a lot. My boyfriend in high school taught me how to drive a stick shift. Chris Price. Thank you. Chris And I pretend to go backwards. I'm like, oh, no. And they're like, mom. And I'm like, Jesus, take the wheel and like, put your hands on the wheel. 

Sophie Bearman [00:23:43] I love that story. I guess one follow up, then since we have the time. As you know, you said your views on the military surprised people. Does your love for country music do the same? 

Kara Swisher [00:23:51] It does. I like literally, I'm super patriotic. You know, I think they're and they're surprised that I know country music. They'll make a reference like, you don't know this. I'm like, Are you fucking kidding? Of course I know this. And so I think you have to surprise people that you're not like a San Francisco liberal lesbian, loves country music and wanted to be in the military. Well, that's surprising. And I think I think what we do right now, because of propaganda and because of where politics have gone, is that we think we're not alike when in fact we're different, but surprising, different in ways that we don't think so. And so I think that's one of the things we have to get back, this idea that maybe we're all a little more complex than we think. This is not about children's books, but Dr. Seuss, maybe things are, you know, he often, Dr. Seuss's themes are often about how maybe things are a little more complex than they seem. 

Sophie Bearman [00:24:40] So your next song takes us to Hawaii. 

Kara Swisher [00:24:43] Yes. 

Sophie Bearman [00:24:43] Why? 

Kara Swisher [00:24:44] I love Hawaii more than any place on Earth. I've traveled the world. I went there and I felt like I had been there my whole life. You know what I mean? There's certain places you go and you're like, yes, here I am. I just love Hawaii and this song. I just think it's beautiful. I just love Hawaiian music and real Hawaiian music. And I like Don Hồ, by the way. I choose not to like Don Hồ, you know, "Tiny Bubbles" and whatever. But this one is just beautiful. And this is I can't pronounce his name. Dennis. 

Sophie Bearman [00:25:10] Dennis Kamakahi. 

Kara Swisher [00:25:11] Anyway, he's an amazing, he's well known for the Slack key guitar. And I just love I love everything he does. 

Sophie Bearman [00:25:17] Here's Dennis Karmakahi's "Wahine 'Ilikea."

Kara Swisher [00:25:44] I just love this song and it reminds me of the islands. And you know, I actually read a lot of history of the islands. Quite violent, right? But even before the missionaries got there, like these incredible societies, I mean, we now Moana-ized it, which I have to also listen to all the time. But place is important in songs to me. And that's I just it reminds me of Hawaii. 

Sophie Bearman [00:26:05] Kara you have this incredible public identity as this amazing tech journalist, media entrepreneur. But I can hear in this conversation you also identify so strongly as a mother and a parent. What does it mean to you to be the mom of four? 

Kara Swisher [00:26:20] It's the best thing I ever did. I always wanted to have kids since I was a young person, and especially being gay, people said you couldn't. I was like, I'm going to, you know, sorry, my friends. And I just think they're they're really fine young people so far, like my two older sons are just really, I think, spectacular human beings. I part I'm part of that. I've been part of that important part. So is my ex wife. And they're just good men. I've raised some good men, which we need more of, right? I really think they're just good people and I feel good about leaving them here when I go. And so I was in my late 50s when I just had these new kids. And during during Covid, what did you do? And I just I, I'm so happy to have younger kids. I think they're wonderful and they all get along. That's my favorite part, is they really they're really a gang of troublemakers. And so great to think about what you leave behind. And I leave behind these really great children. 

Sophie Bearman [00:27:13] Kara, I love that you're wearing a hat right now, that says "Michigan Dad."

Kara Swisher [00:27:18] I have "NYU Dad," too. I switch between them, but it's true. I got to tell you, when I wear both of them, people love fucking Michigan. It's crazy. It's crazy. They're like, "go blue!" I'm like, what? 

Sophie Bearman [00:27:28] You mentioned a couple times feeling like you've raised kids. That will be okay and be good people when you're gone. And the last song you chose, "Quarter Moon" by Cheryl Wheeler is sort of about death in some ways. 

Kara Swisher [00:27:42] It's about death. It's about the passing and it's about, again, people that didn't. It probably does remind me of my grandmother, though she wasn't a gardener. But it's about you know, it's about gardening. It's gardening. I love, I'm not a gardener, but I've always read gardening columns. And there was a great column in The Washington Post by a guy named Henry Mitchell. It wasn't about gardening, it was about life and death. Right? It was about renewal. And some of my favorite poems are, there's one about garden. They're often about gardens and stuff like that. And and I just love this. I love Cheryl Wheeler. First of all, again, folk music, you know, lesbian, she's a wonderful songwriter, tells wonderful stories, and she's also very funny. She does a lot of funny songs, but also incredibly sad breakup songs and just she just tells wonderful stories and they they drag you in. Most people love "Arrow" from her. That was her one of her big hits. But I love this song. I just love this idea of of these older people living their life out in this yard. That's where they are. And leaving behind a legacy that maybe no one will notice but was there. 

Kara Swisher [00:29:11] It's a beautiful song. Again, it's corny in a lot of ways, but yeah, I love Cheryl Wheeler's voice. I just I've been to a lot of her concerts. I think she's another under song singer/ songwriter. I just, this song is beautiful. It's like they seem to know each other very well. It's just a simple line. It's also beautiful. She's a beautiful writer, too, which I appreciate. There's a line about, essentially about waiting for the sunset from an old and ancient dawn. Meaning these are people about, you know, they've lived their lives, essentially. But it's a very happy song, even though it's a sad song. It's a really it's a it's a song about legacy. And I think I love that. 

Sophie Bearman [00:29:44] We started this conversation with me declaring that you're no nonsense and you and you are. I've seen that side of you, but you're kind of you're a bit of a softy.

Kara Swisher [00:29:52] I'm very sentimental. I'm a softy when it comes to songs. Absolutely. Not when it comes to Elon fuckin Musk. He should go to Mars, Rocket Man. Go for it. Get to Mars and leave us the fuck alone. Anyway. 

Sophie Bearman [00:30:06] Anyway, Yeah. Thank you for showing the softer side of Kara Swisher. 

Kara Swisher [00:30:10] No problem. Thank you so much. 

Sophie Bearman [00:30:12] I really appreciate it. This was fun. 

Kara Swisher [00:30:13] Thanks, Sophie. 

Sophie Bearman [00:30:40] Life in Seven Songs is a production from The San Francisco Standard. This episode was produced by Michelle Lanz and our senior producer, Jasmyn Morris. Our executive producers are Griffin Gaffney and Jon Steinberg. This episode was mixed by Michelle Lanz. Our theme music is by Kate Davis and Zubin Hensler and Clark Miller created our show Art. Our music consultant is Sarah Tembeckjian. You can find Kara Swisher's full playlist at sf.news/spotify. Thanks for listening and see you next time.